"Yes, capitalism assumes people will act in their best interest. It's what makes the market work. ..." - DJ
Are you kidding? If that is what makes it 'work', it is what has broken it too. On Mar 3, 11:59 am, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > Yes, capitalism assumes people will act in their best interest. It's > what makes the market work. The socialist concept of busting your ass > for the 'public good' isn't going to work. Obama and co. are going to > have a rude awakening when they finally figure this out. It's going > to be a rough 4 years. Probably 8. > > dj > > > > On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Kierkecraig <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Don, > > Yes, I too hold the individuals responsible. But isn't that a given? > > Isn't the expectation that individuals will be greedy and self > > interested? I guess its no surprise then that the institutions set up > > by those individuals mirror their qualities. > > > On Mar 3, 11:24 am, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> As usual, I see your side and agree Craig. However, I don't discount > >> the responsibility of the individuals that signed the papers knowing > >> they couldn't afford what they were getting. If they didn't know, > >> they should have. I have made mistakes in the past and have paid for > >> them dearly in some cases. It frustrates me that I'm expected to pay > >> for others as well. > > >> The banks and financial institutions are also at fault for creative > >> schemes gone wrong. I'm talking about Credit Default Swaps and > >> convoluted derivatives in general. Bundling mortgages and passing > >> them off to unsuspecting investors, while apparently legal, is > >> certainly unethical and our SEC should have taken better care of the > >> publics interest. It's supposed to be why they exist. But, surprise, > >> surprise! The government is incompetent. I'm shocked. And appalled. > > >> Someone made the point that we are government. There is some merit to > >> this which is why I support less government. Less to go wrong. > > >> dj > > >> On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Kierkecraig <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > > >> > Same thing I said to Slip, I say to you gruff. This isn't the banks > >> > fault. They would never have done that. It doesn't make financial > >> > sense to do that. The government did what you are complaining of. > >> > Such an atrocity would never have happened in a truly free market. > > >> > On Mar 3, 8:28 am, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> We could always start with the real estate agents who, once the dogs > >> >> of finance were unleashed, told any lie they could get away with to > >> >> entice undeserving and under-earning people who couldn't afford a pot > >> >> to piss in to buy a six figure home on the promise of a quick buck in > >> >> a year or two when the 10% return on investment provided them with a > >> >> five figure profit. > > >> >> I just wonder when (and if) the powers that be are going to go after > >> >> those who reaped these unwarranted profits and got out before the > >> >> crash. > > >> >> On Mar 2, 9:27 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> > I apologize for the belated welcome but nevertheless, Welcome! > >> >> > What you have to understand, wood, is that many people have not the > >> >> > slightest idea of financial calculation and are "told" by financial > >> >> > experts that they "can" afford the house, the car, the credit card. > >> >> > We cannot blame the people alone but more so the financial > >> >> > institutions that have taken advantage of those who cannot perceive > >> >> > their own financial worth and capability of repayment. The US > >> >> > unfortunately is full of sharks that have taken control of government, > >> >> > taken control of the poor situations in which people live. > >> >> > Who of you out there would not want to have a better home, car, and > >> >> > other amenities in life? > >> >> > What is happening now is an "Atrocity" perpetrated by the wealthy in > >> >> > control of the government. > > >> >> > On Mar 2, 8:02 pm, wood <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> > > As much as I would love to blame, the government for this mess, but > >> >> > > the government is not entirely to blame—The problem is closer to > >> >> > > home. > >> >> > > People only have themselves to blame for putting themselves into > >> >> > > situation they could have avoid only if they were mentally stronger, > >> >> > > and not be blinded by false dreams and value. In trying to live the > >> >> > > “American dreams” people makes premature decision; buying house they > >> >> > > know they cannot afford, cars they can’t maintain… All for what? > >> >> > > People need to change their outlook on life and stop falling victim > >> >> > > to > >> >> > > mind imprisonment. In the drive to establish independency and > >> >> > > individuality, everyone has become the same. > > >> >> > > On Feb 26, 4:17 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> > > > "... Now our government is trying to keep deadbeats in houses they > >> >> > > > can't afford and shouldn't have gotten loans for in the first > >> >> > > > place. > >> >> > > > It's asinine." - DJ > > >> >> > > > What is even more 'asinine' and is not being talked about at ALL > >> >> > > > in > >> >> > > > any media is that those of us who don't even own a house, whether > >> >> > > > we > >> >> > > > could afford one or not ...and rent or...whatever, live on the > >> >> > > > street, > >> >> > > > at parent's home etc. are among those who are PAYING the banks to > >> >> > > > help > >> >> > > > keep people in homes! It's not even asinine, it is criminal! > > >> >> > > > On Feb 26, 2:42 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> > > > > Government is the problem because they manage the tax code. > >> >> > > > > It's so > >> >> > > > > confusing the guy hired to be in charge of it can't figure out > >> >> > > > > how to > >> >> > > > > pay his taxes. Let's make it easy. How about a flat tax on all > >> >> > > > > income and consumption? Without the loopholes that are so > >> >> > > > > abundant > >> >> > > > > for the extremely wealthy to avoid taxes. I love the idea. Of > >> >> > > > > course, this would eliminate Congress's major power of > >> >> > > > > reward/punishment ability so it will never happen. The > >> >> > > > > bribes...oops, > >> >> > > > > I mean campaign donations... would dry up. > > >> >> > > > > dj > > >> >> > > > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:45 PM, ornamentalmind > > >> >> > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> > > > > > Yes, it is fran. Today many who pay a lot in taxes, not > >> >> > > > > > percentage > >> >> > > > > > wise, but in amount based on a large income don't mind at > >> >> > > > > > all. Only a > >> >> > > > > > select vocal few are heard in the media to the point that such > >> >> > > > > > propaganda about the government being the problem > >> >> > > > > > (Ronnie)....has > >> >> > > > > > become a common myth. I've said it many times...when I was a > >> >> > > > > > kid, my > >> >> > > > > > father paid 91% of his income in taxes...and, we did VERY > >> >> > > > > > well....no > >> >> > > > > > complaints. Today, in most cases, the poor pay a higher > >> >> > > > > > percentage of > >> >> > > > > > their income in taxes than the rich. Robin Hood aside, this > >> >> > > > > > is absurd > >> >> > > > > > no matter the argument. > > >> >> > > > > > On Feb 25, 9:28 am, frantheman <[email protected]> > >> >> > > > > > wrote: > >> >> > > > > >> Don's - of course - purely rhetorical suggestion about the > >> >> > > > > >> non-payment > >> >> > > > > >> of taxes seems to echo a certain US American mythology that > >> >> > > > > >> there's > >> >> > > > > >> something un-american about paying taxes, as well as there > >> >> > > > > >> being > >> >> > > > > >> something inherently suspect about (central) government. > > >> >> > > > > >> Nobody likes paying taxes and very few would even consider > >> >> > > > > >> paying more > >> >> > > > > >> than they absolutely have to - including me. But I must also > >> >> > > > > >> acknowledge that taxation is the basic method for paying for > >> >> > > > > >> things > >> >> > > > > >> which a country/community/society feels need to be organised > >> >> > > > > >> collectively. It belongs to the basic ideas of > >> >> > > > > >> self-definition of a > >> >> > > > > >> country/community/society to decide what these collective > >> >> > > > > >> tasks are > >> >> > > > > >> and how far they should be funded by the common purse. > > >> >> > > > > >> Even as a non-US American, I seem to remember that the > >> >> > > > > >> rallying cry > >> >> > > > > >> for the American Revolution was not, "No taxation," but > >> >> > > > > >> rather "No > >> >> > > > > >> taxation without representation." The USA established itself > >> >> > > > > >> on this > >> >> > > > > >> basis as a representative democracy. Everything else flows > >> >> > > > > >> from that. > >> >> > > > > >> To use the language of 18th Century political thinkers, > >> >> > > > > >> that's the > >> >> > > > > >> basic social contract and there's no way to opt out of it > >> >> > > > > >> and back to > >> >> > > > > >> the "state of nature." As far as I recall, the US fought a > >> >> > > > > >> rather > >> >> > > > > >> spectacular civil war about that very issue. Those who > >> >> > > > > >> wanted the > >> >> > > > > >> right to opt out lost. > > >> >> > > > > >> None of this, of course, addresses problems of injustice > >> >> > > > > >> within > >> >> > > > > >> particular taxation systems. But, strictly seen, that's what > >> >> > > > > >> has to be > >> >> > > > > >> sorted out within the representative democracy framework. > >> >> > > > > >> Or, if your > >> >> > > > > >> conscientious objections lead you to refuse, then you must > >> >> > > > > >> accept the > >> >> > > > > >> consequences. In my opinion, that's the kind of bravery Orn > >> >> > > > > >> is talking > >> >> > > > > >> about. > > >> >> > > > > >> Francis > > >> >> > > > > >> On 25 Feb., 16:50, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > >> >> > > > > >> wrote: > > >> >> > > > > >> > First, since the US stopped being serious about tariffs, > >> >> > > > > >> > taxes are > >> >> > > > > >> > needed for the common good. The IRS has been under-funded > >> >> > > > > >> > for years > >> >> > > > > >> > and the result(s) is they only go after those accounts > >> >> > > > > >> > that will be > >> >> > > > > >> > easy to collect. read: the accounts of the > >> >> > > > > >> > non-powerful/non-rich. > >> >> > > > > >> > Our founding fathers not only decided not to continue to > >> >> > > > > >> > pay their > >> >> > > > > >> > taxes, but they took action that would have resulted in > >> >> > > > > >> > their death if > >> >> > > > > >> > caught. Almost to a man, they died in poverty. Few today > >> >> > > > > >> > are as brave. > > >> >> > > > > >> > On Feb 24, 6:41 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> > > > > >> > > Sure, the Duty of Civil Disobedience, good ole Thoreau. > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
