Don, Yes, I too hold the individuals responsible. But isn't that a given? Isn't the expectation that individuals will be greedy and self interested? I guess its no surprise then that the institutions set up by those individuals mirror their qualities.
On Mar 3, 11:24 am, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > As usual, I see your side and agree Craig. However, I don't discount > the responsibility of the individuals that signed the papers knowing > they couldn't afford what they were getting. If they didn't know, > they should have. I have made mistakes in the past and have paid for > them dearly in some cases. It frustrates me that I'm expected to pay > for others as well. > > The banks and financial institutions are also at fault for creative > schemes gone wrong. I'm talking about Credit Default Swaps and > convoluted derivatives in general. Bundling mortgages and passing > them off to unsuspecting investors, while apparently legal, is > certainly unethical and our SEC should have taken better care of the > publics interest. It's supposed to be why they exist. But, surprise, > surprise! The government is incompetent. I'm shocked. And appalled. > > Someone made the point that we are government. There is some merit to > this which is why I support less government. Less to go wrong. > > dj > > On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Kierkecraig <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Same thing I said to Slip, I say to you gruff. This isn't the banks > > fault. They would never have done that. It doesn't make financial > > sense to do that. The government did what you are complaining of. > > Such an atrocity would never have happened in a truly free market. > > > On Mar 3, 8:28 am, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > >> We could always start with the real estate agents who, once the dogs > >> of finance were unleashed, told any lie they could get away with to > >> entice undeserving and under-earning people who couldn't afford a pot > >> to piss in to buy a six figure home on the promise of a quick buck in > >> a year or two when the 10% return on investment provided them with a > >> five figure profit. > > >> I just wonder when (and if) the powers that be are going to go after > >> those who reaped these unwarranted profits and got out before the > >> crash. > > >> On Mar 2, 9:27 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > I apologize for the belated welcome but nevertheless, Welcome! > >> > What you have to understand, wood, is that many people have not the > >> > slightest idea of financial calculation and are "told" by financial > >> > experts that they "can" afford the house, the car, the credit card. > >> > We cannot blame the people alone but more so the financial > >> > institutions that have taken advantage of those who cannot perceive > >> > their own financial worth and capability of repayment. The US > >> > unfortunately is full of sharks that have taken control of government, > >> > taken control of the poor situations in which people live. > >> > Who of you out there would not want to have a better home, car, and > >> > other amenities in life? > >> > What is happening now is an "Atrocity" perpetrated by the wealthy in > >> > control of the government. > > >> > On Mar 2, 8:02 pm, wood <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > As much as I would love to blame, the government for this mess, but > >> > > the government is not entirely to blame—The problem is closer to home. > >> > > People only have themselves to blame for putting themselves into > >> > > situation they could have avoid only if they were mentally stronger, > >> > > and not be blinded by false dreams and value. In trying to live the > >> > > “American dreams” people makes premature decision; buying house they > >> > > know they cannot afford, cars they can’t maintain… All for what? > >> > > People need to change their outlook on life and stop falling victim to > >> > > mind imprisonment. In the drive to establish independency and > >> > > individuality, everyone has become the same. > > >> > > On Feb 26, 4:17 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > > "... Now our government is trying to keep deadbeats in houses they > >> > > > can't afford and shouldn't have gotten loans for in the first place. > >> > > > It's asinine." - DJ > > >> > > > What is even more 'asinine' and is not being talked about at ALL in > >> > > > any media is that those of us who don't even own a house, whether we > >> > > > could afford one or not ...and rent or...whatever, live on the > >> > > > street, > >> > > > at parent's home etc. are among those who are PAYING the banks to > >> > > > help > >> > > > keep people in homes! It's not even asinine, it is criminal! > > >> > > > On Feb 26, 2:42 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > > > Government is the problem because they manage the tax code. It's > >> > > > > so > >> > > > > confusing the guy hired to be in charge of it can't figure out how > >> > > > > to > >> > > > > pay his taxes. Let's make it easy. How about a flat tax on all > >> > > > > income and consumption? Without the loopholes that are so abundant > >> > > > > for the extremely wealthy to avoid taxes. I love the idea. Of > >> > > > > course, this would eliminate Congress's major power of > >> > > > > reward/punishment ability so it will never happen. The > >> > > > > bribes...oops, > >> > > > > I mean campaign donations... would dry up. > > >> > > > > dj > > >> > > > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:45 PM, ornamentalmind > > >> > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > > > > Yes, it is fran. Today many who pay a lot in taxes, not > >> > > > > > percentage > >> > > > > > wise, but in amount based on a large income don't mind at all. > >> > > > > > Only a > >> > > > > > select vocal few are heard in the media to the point that such > >> > > > > > propaganda about the government being the problem (Ronnie)....has > >> > > > > > become a common myth. I've said it many times...when I was a > >> > > > > > kid, my > >> > > > > > father paid 91% of his income in taxes...and, we did VERY > >> > > > > > well....no > >> > > > > > complaints. Today, in most cases, the poor pay a higher > >> > > > > > percentage of > >> > > > > > their income in taxes than the rich. Robin Hood aside, this is > >> > > > > > absurd > >> > > > > > no matter the argument. > > >> > > > > > On Feb 25, 9:28 am, frantheman <[email protected]> > >> > > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > >> Don's - of course - purely rhetorical suggestion about the > >> > > > > >> non-payment > >> > > > > >> of taxes seems to echo a certain US American mythology that > >> > > > > >> there's > >> > > > > >> something un-american about paying taxes, as well as there being > >> > > > > >> something inherently suspect about (central) government. > > >> > > > > >> Nobody likes paying taxes and very few would even consider > >> > > > > >> paying more > >> > > > > >> than they absolutely have to - including me. But I must also > >> > > > > >> acknowledge that taxation is the basic method for paying for > >> > > > > >> things > >> > > > > >> which a country/community/society feels need to be organised > >> > > > > >> collectively. It belongs to the basic ideas of self-definition > >> > > > > >> of a > >> > > > > >> country/community/society to decide what these collective tasks > >> > > > > >> are > >> > > > > >> and how far they should be funded by the common purse. > > >> > > > > >> Even as a non-US American, I seem to remember that the rallying > >> > > > > >> cry > >> > > > > >> for the American Revolution was not, "No taxation," but rather > >> > > > > >> "No > >> > > > > >> taxation without representation." The USA established itself on > >> > > > > >> this > >> > > > > >> basis as a representative democracy. Everything else flows from > >> > > > > >> that. > >> > > > > >> To use the language of 18th Century political thinkers, that's > >> > > > > >> the > >> > > > > >> basic social contract and there's no way to opt out of it and > >> > > > > >> back to > >> > > > > >> the "state of nature." As far as I recall, the US fought a > >> > > > > >> rather > >> > > > > >> spectacular civil war about that very issue. Those who wanted > >> > > > > >> the > >> > > > > >> right to opt out lost. > > >> > > > > >> None of this, of course, addresses problems of injustice within > >> > > > > >> particular taxation systems. But, strictly seen, that's what > >> > > > > >> has to be > >> > > > > >> sorted out within the representative democracy framework. Or, > >> > > > > >> if your > >> > > > > >> conscientious objections lead you to refuse, then you must > >> > > > > >> accept the > >> > > > > >> consequences. In my opinion, that's the kind of bravery Orn is > >> > > > > >> talking > >> > > > > >> about. > > >> > > > > >> Francis > > >> > > > > >> On 25 Feb., 16:50, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > >> > > > > >> wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > First, since the US stopped being serious about tariffs, > >> > > > > >> > taxes are > >> > > > > >> > needed for the common good. The IRS has been under-funded for > >> > > > > >> > years > >> > > > > >> > and the result(s) is they only go after those accounts that > >> > > > > >> > will be > >> > > > > >> > easy to collect. read: the accounts of the > >> > > > > >> > non-powerful/non-rich. > >> > > > > >> > Our founding fathers not only decided not to continue to pay > >> > > > > >> > their > >> > > > > >> > taxes, but they took action that would have resulted in their > >> > > > > >> > death if > >> > > > > >> > caught. Almost to a man, they died in poverty. Few today are > >> > > > > >> > as brave. > > >> > > > > >> > On Feb 24, 6:41 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > Sure, the Duty of Civil Disobedience, good ole Thoreau. > >> > > > > >> > > Truthfully, > >> > > > > >> > > they already have the tax money, now it's people filing > >> > > > > >> > > returns hoping > >> > > > > >> > > to get something back from the forced prepay plan. You > >> > > > > >> > > can't get a > >> > > > > >> > > job at any corporation if you tell them you will pay your > >> > > > > >> > > own taxes > >> > > > > >> > > from a 1099. The IRS spends hundreds of thousands on paper > >> > > > > >> > > alone plus > >> > > > > >> > > millions on salaried collectors and yes men. > > >> > > > > >> > > On Feb 24, 7:05 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > > I'm against rioting in the streets but I'm all for civil > >> > > > > >> > > > disobedience. > >> > > > > >> > > > If we en mass refused to pay federal taxes for last year > >> > > > > >> > > > I think we > >> > > > > >> > > > might get Washington's attention. Start simply by > >> > > > > >> > > > applying for > >> > > > > >> > > > extensions and taking every legal route to delay paying > >> > > > > >> > > > right up until > >> > > > > >> > > > the court order to pay and then just quietly say "No." > > >> > > > > >> > > > Whatta ya say gang? Who's with me? > > >> > > > > >> > > > dj > > >> > > > > >> > > > Disclaimer: Above suggestion is purely rhetorical and I > >> > > > > >> > > > have no > > ... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
