I think two of the best definitions of evil come from German literature, specifically Goethe's Faust. Mephistopheles initially defines himself as the spirit that always negates, since all of creation deserves to be negated. Faust, for his part, states that the devil is an egoist, who does not help others. These terribly oversimplify a beautiful and powerful work, but they are helpful to us: evil is that which seeks to negate all that is good, both the beauties of the physical world and the better impulses in humans; and it seeks purely to further its own negative ends. In the everyday world, we rarely find unalloyed evil--usually the will to negate is combined with some constructive impulse--but our world certainly sees it, as with the millions of deaths in the Congo. It is perhaps significant that when Russian troops were overthrowing a Fascist regime in Romania toward the end of World War II, the Fascist radio broadcast, "Long live death!" That comes as close to a pure expression of evil as you can easily find.
On Mar 18, 1:07 pm, gabbydott <[email protected]> wrote: > Assigning the value „pride“ to my different view from yours is a > prejudice, Molly. I can easily accept that you see good and evil as > integral to your life; that’s your choice, your decision and has > nothing to do with me. To me, fighting (d)evil is a constituent > element of my life. Sometimes I do better, sometimes worse. All I can > tell you is, that it’s worth doing better. ;-P > > On 18 Mrz., 14:31, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote:> I am not so > sure that good and evil exist outside of our > > consciousness. Or anything else, for that matter. I am sure that > > Justin can do more justice to this point than I can. But I think, > > that much like Gabby takes some pride in holding herself separate from > > me, we sometimes take identity in holding ourselves separate from > > others as we judge and value the differences. Not good or bad, it is > > something we humans do. Here, good and sometimes evil come into play > > as we explore the "I am not" of I am. Trouble is, the paradox of the > > Pharisee comes into play in the subtle levels, and what we are so > > certain we are not, we become in our entrenched separation. It is a > > huge leap to accept all the good and the evil, both as integral to > > life as the polarity that allows change in time and space - our > > separate nature. After all, we are the many and the one. But if we can > > we see, that while evil exists, it no longer has an evil value, but > > becomes the way of yin and yang and balance and if seen with love, > > joy. Here, evil is removed from our direct experience. Still on the > > outskirts of our consciousness, as is the spectrum of human > > experience, but directly, we are protected because we are not holding > > it in our thoughts and feelings. > > > When "bad" things happen in our lives brought on by "evil" doers, we > > ourselves are assigning those values and blame, and hold ourselves > > separate, saying "that is evil, I am not that." By doing so, we > > ourselves bring more of that into our direct experience. When Shiva > > makes an entrance into the lives of non dual thinkers, no value is > > assigned to the event. It is seen in much the Buddhist way, as a > > natural cycle of events and often taken on faith that construction and > > creation follow the destruction. What was before a "bad" event > > brought on by the evil people around me, becomes the dawn of > > possibility, as Shiva's mighty sword clears the way for it. The non > > dual thinker has long gotten over the "woe is me" state of mind when > > difficulties arise, and open themselves to possibility in a quiet > > state of active anticipation while feeling the connection to everyone > > and all that is. > > > On Mar 18, 7:59 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > There is no need of high minded human egoism for either good or evil. > > > There is much we might make of Slip.'s 'noticing' that such stuff was > > > about long before 'us'. Even the urge to be good can be bad. The > > > arguments should surely be about how we are so easily swayed by > > > trinkets and fetish whilst others starve. There have been urgings of > > > stricter morality - these usually ending up in mad sects so holy they > > > decide to kill everyone else, or the long shaggy-dog stories of > > > Kiekegaard or evil Popes recommending abstinence to African hookers. > > > We, I suspect contain the evil and we need a cure. We know what this > > > is, but are too evil to be bothered. > > > > On 18 Mar, 02:34, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Evil exists if and only if good exists. Both good and evil exist if > > > > and only if a morality exists.<<MB > > > > > Does Cold exist only if Hot exists? > > > > > Cold and Hot exist only because we exist? > > > > > Good and Evil transcend that of humanity, that of human morality. > > > > > Good and Evil existed long before the presence of humanity and > > > > humanity's sense of morality. > > > > > On Mar 17, 7:33 pm, Michael Berkovits <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Evil exists if and only if good exists. > > > > > > Whether or not a morality exists depends purely on what one means by a > > > > > "morality." It's a definitional question, no? Clearly, people have > > > > > moral intuitions, reflected in emotional preferences between options - > > > > > certain options feel "right," certain options feel "wrong." > > > > > > There are at least two possible preliminary definitions of evil. > > > > > First, is it having an incorrect or backwards moral map, such that > > > > > actions that the large majority of people view as "wrong" are instead > > > > > viewed as right? Second, is it the ability or tendency to act > > > > > contrary to one's moral map - i.e., to choose and actually carry out > > > > > options that "feel" wrong? > > > > > > I would suggest that this discussion is best carried out by focusing > > > > > in on which question is being asked. Does the question "Does evil > > > > > exist" refer to the first question, or to the second, or to either? > > > > > > Secondarily - and this is something I will have less agreement on - I > > > > > will suggest that the topic basically turns entirely on definitions > > > > > and hence not much headway can be made in thinking about it. Are > > > > > there people who consistently choose actions, a much larger percentage > > > > > of the time than do ordinary people, that are viewed by the large > > > > > majority of people as being wrong? Yes, of course there are such > > > > > individuals. Are such actions evil? That depends entirely on whether > > > > > you assign blame to them. One can feel viscerally angry with such > > > > > people yet, from a purely logical standpoint, assign no "blame" to > > > > > them. > > > > > > Of course, generally in society we do assign blame. My personal > > > > > tendency is not to do so - I don't find it very helpful. Actions > > > > > exist in the world, I have visceral reactions and judgments of those > > > > > actions, but I choose not to have "rational" judgments of those > > > > > actions. It doesn't feel to me like it gets me anywhere. > > > > > > On Mar 17, 4:56 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > I tend to think of evil as a virus - though I don't mean I'd go > > > > > > looking for it on the bench. We can all catch it, but probably get > > > > > > inoculated against it too - though here we should also remember that > > > > > > simple measures would eradicate malaria and we don't bother. I find > > > > > > much less evil around when people will try to assess and accept > > > > > > facts > > > > > > and take responsibility - our machine politicians don't recognise > > > > > > the > > > > > > damage they do with their denials and public relations claptrap. > > > > > > One > > > > > > can think of us infected by a Bureaucron species from afar, but I > > > > > > find > > > > > > most evil is concerned with groupthink and rationalisation. > > > > > > Disaster > > > > > > is very close. Cracking the evil of bureaucracy requires courage, > > > > > > but > > > > > > this in turn trumpets the existential hero, perhaps Kierkegaard or > > > > > > Nietzsche ironically urging us to ever more holiness beyond the > > > > > > pretences of the holy. Most of the scandals emerging in the UK at > > > > > > the > > > > > > moment involve bureaucratic lying by the usual suspects. We really > > > > > > need some form of branding so we can get on with the cull. > > > > > > > On 17 Mar, 14:53, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > I think the world had a different moral code back then. No other > > > > > > > nation stepped up when the US was wiping out the Native American > > > > > > > tribes. Indeed, the Canadians provided safe haven, but did not > > > > > > > engage > > > > > > > the Americans. The ancient Romans engaged in genocide, as have > > > > > > > African's - we can go on and on. I think today, looking at > > > > > > > Somalia, > > > > > > > it can go on for awhile before anyone challenges it. But we are > > > > > > > moving into an era where globally we ban together and work toward > > > > > > > ending this kind of "evil doing." We live in a world where this > > > > > > > cannot stay hidden. > > > > > > > > Is the question, what in human nature is destructive? Or cruel? > > > > > > > Or > > > > > > > murderous? Here in Detroit, the populous has been electing > > > > > > > members of > > > > > > > the Kilpatrick family to office for many years (Mayor and US > > > > > > > Congress.) After the Mayor was removed from office for abuse of > > > > > > > power > > > > > > > and suspected in the later murders of two strippers his wife took > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > baseball bat to during a party at the Mayoral mansion, the feds > > > > > > > began > > > > > > > to investigate. Wow. Did it really take something like that to > > > > > > > come > > > > > > > to our attention? The feds have not yet indicted, but it is > > > > > > > rumored > > > > > > > that the investigation will reveal that the area has been long > > > > > > > ravaged > > > > > > > financially by this family in payoffs and power mongering. Why > > > > > > > does > > > > > > > it go on? > > > > > > > > I think there is a level in our individual and group development, > > > > > > > when > > > > > > > we are so entrenched in self survival, and so need to follow the > > > > > > > group, that predatory leaders like this can emerge and pillage, > > > > > > > using > > > > > > > rhetoric that speaks of group unity and identity, superficially > > > > > > > filling the needs of the group while confiscating the less visible > > > > > > > assets. New technology is not a be all end all for us - but the > > > > > > > wire > > > > > > > tapping, text message retrieval, cell phone recording does allow > > > > > > > enough transparency that these folks have a much harder time of it > > > > > > > now. My guess is, that for all their "evil" ingenuity, they will > > > > > > > need > > > > > > > to find ways to lead more honestly to survive now and in the > > > > > > > future. > > > > > > > Is it evil? Is it part of human nature or development? Has it > > > > > > > always > > > > > > > been here? Will it ever go away? > > > > > > > > On Mar 17, 9:03 am, frantheman <[email protected]> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 17 Mrz., 00:15, gabbydott <[email protected]> wrote:> Come > > > > > > > > on, Francis, you are an intelligent man. What are you saying > > > > > > > > > about not knowing how many witnesses of the disappearance of > > > > > > > > > Jews, > > > > > > > > > Communists, and mentally ill people were evil? In respect to > > > > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > > dumbness they were all evil, of course. Their loved ones > > > > > > > > > often would > > > > > > > > > have focused on other qualities in them, obviously. > > > > > > > > > Lost in translation? > > > > > > > > It occurred to me, Gabby, that the word, "evil" in English is > > > > > > > > used > > > > > > > > somewhat differently to its German equivalent "böse". 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