Slip, mind expanding a bit more on your view(s) about good/evil not only being innate, but eternal and pre-human? I too seem to embrace a sort of universal 'good'...omnipresent, eternal, in everything etc. but such things are more ethereal than the average person wishes to address.
On Mar 18, 6:31 am, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > I am not so sure that good and evil exist outside of our > consciousness. Or anything else, for that matter. I am sure that > Justin can do more justice to this point than I can. But I think, > that much like Gabby takes some pride in holding herself separate from > me, we sometimes take identity in holding ourselves separate from > others as we judge and value the differences. Not good or bad, it is > something we humans do. Here, good and sometimes evil come into play > as we explore the "I am not" of I am. Trouble is, the paradox of the > Pharisee comes into play in the subtle levels, and what we are so > certain we are not, we become in our entrenched separation. It is a > huge leap to accept all the good and the evil, both as integral to > life as the polarity that allows change in time and space - our > separate nature. After all, we are the many and the one. But if we can > we see, that while evil exists, it no longer has an evil value, but > becomes the way of yin and yang and balance and if seen with love, > joy. Here, evil is removed from our direct experience. Still on the > outskirts of our consciousness, as is the spectrum of human > experience, but directly, we are protected because we are not holding > it in our thoughts and feelings. > > When "bad" things happen in our lives brought on by "evil" doers, we > ourselves are assigning those values and blame, and hold ourselves > separate, saying "that is evil, I am not that." By doing so, we > ourselves bring more of that into our direct experience. When Shiva > makes an entrance into the lives of non dual thinkers, no value is > assigned to the event. It is seen in much the Buddhist way, as a > natural cycle of events and often taken on faith that construction and > creation follow the destruction. What was before a "bad" event > brought on by the evil people around me, becomes the dawn of > possibility, as Shiva's mighty sword clears the way for it. The non > dual thinker has long gotten over the "woe is me" state of mind when > difficulties arise, and open themselves to possibility in a quiet > state of active anticipation while feeling the connection to everyone > and all that is. > > On Mar 18, 7:59 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > There is no need of high minded human egoism for either good or evil. > > There is much we might make of Slip.'s 'noticing' that such stuff was > > about long before 'us'. Even the urge to be good can be bad. The > > arguments should surely be about how we are so easily swayed by > > trinkets and fetish whilst others starve. There have been urgings of > > stricter morality - these usually ending up in mad sects so holy they > > decide to kill everyone else, or the long shaggy-dog stories of > > Kiekegaard or evil Popes recommending abstinence to African hookers. > > We, I suspect contain the evil and we need a cure. We know what this > > is, but are too evil to be bothered. > > > On 18 Mar, 02:34, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Evil exists if and only if good exists. Both good and evil exist if > > > and only if a morality exists.<<MB > > > > Does Cold exist only if Hot exists? > > > > Cold and Hot exist only because we exist? > > > > Good and Evil transcend that of humanity, that of human morality. > > > > Good and Evil existed long before the presence of humanity and > > > humanity's sense of morality. > > > > On Mar 17, 7:33 pm, Michael Berkovits <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Evil exists if and only if good exists. > > > > > Whether or not a morality exists depends purely on what one means by a > > > > "morality." It's a definitional question, no? Clearly, people have > > > > moral intuitions, reflected in emotional preferences between options - > > > > certain options feel "right," certain options feel "wrong." > > > > > There are at least two possible preliminary definitions of evil. > > > > First, is it having an incorrect or backwards moral map, such that > > > > actions that the large majority of people view as "wrong" are instead > > > > viewed as right? Second, is it the ability or tendency to act > > > > contrary to one's moral map - i.e., to choose and actually carry out > > > > options that "feel" wrong? > > > > > I would suggest that this discussion is best carried out by focusing > > > > in on which question is being asked. Does the question "Does evil > > > > exist" refer to the first question, or to the second, or to either? > > > > > Secondarily - and this is something I will have less agreement on - I > > > > will suggest that the topic basically turns entirely on definitions > > > > and hence not much headway can be made in thinking about it. Are > > > > there people who consistently choose actions, a much larger percentage > > > > of the time than do ordinary people, that are viewed by the large > > > > majority of people as being wrong? Yes, of course there are such > > > > individuals. Are such actions evil? That depends entirely on whether > > > > you assign blame to them. One can feel viscerally angry with such > > > > people yet, from a purely logical standpoint, assign no "blame" to > > > > them. > > > > > Of course, generally in society we do assign blame. My personal > > > > tendency is not to do so - I don't find it very helpful. Actions > > > > exist in the world, I have visceral reactions and judgments of those > > > > actions, but I choose not to have "rational" judgments of those > > > > actions. It doesn't feel to me like it gets me anywhere. > > > > > On Mar 17, 4:56 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > I tend to think of evil as a virus - though I don't mean I'd go > > > > > looking for it on the bench. We can all catch it, but probably get > > > > > inoculated against it too - though here we should also remember that > > > > > simple measures would eradicate malaria and we don't bother. I find > > > > > much less evil around when people will try to assess and accept facts > > > > > and take responsibility - our machine politicians don't recognise the > > > > > damage they do with their denials and public relations claptrap. One > > > > > can think of us infected by a Bureaucron species from afar, but I find > > > > > most evil is concerned with groupthink and rationalisation. Disaster > > > > > is very close. Cracking the evil of bureaucracy requires courage, but > > > > > this in turn trumpets the existential hero, perhaps Kierkegaard or > > > > > Nietzsche ironically urging us to ever more holiness beyond the > > > > > pretences of the holy. Most of the scandals emerging in the UK at the > > > > > moment involve bureaucratic lying by the usual suspects. We really > > > > > need some form of branding so we can get on with the cull. > > > > > > On 17 Mar, 14:53, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > I think the world had a different moral code back then. No other > > > > > > nation stepped up when the US was wiping out the Native American > > > > > > tribes. Indeed, the Canadians provided safe haven, but did not > > > > > > engage > > > > > > the Americans. The ancient Romans engaged in genocide, as have > > > > > > African's - we can go on and on. I think today, looking at Somalia, > > > > > > it can go on for awhile before anyone challenges it. But we are > > > > > > moving into an era where globally we ban together and work toward > > > > > > ending this kind of "evil doing." We live in a world where this > > > > > > cannot stay hidden. > > > > > > > Is the question, what in human nature is destructive? Or cruel? Or > > > > > > murderous? Here in Detroit, the populous has been electing members > > > > > > of > > > > > > the Kilpatrick family to office for many years (Mayor and US > > > > > > Congress.) After the Mayor was removed from office for abuse of > > > > > > power > > > > > > and suspected in the later murders of two strippers his wife took a > > > > > > baseball bat to during a party at the Mayoral mansion, the feds > > > > > > began > > > > > > to investigate. Wow. Did it really take something like that to > > > > > > come > > > > > > to our attention? The feds have not yet indicted, but it is rumored > > > > > > that the investigation will reveal that the area has been long > > > > > > ravaged > > > > > > financially by this family in payoffs and power mongering. Why does > > > > > > it go on? > > > > > > > I think there is a level in our individual and group development, > > > > > > when > > > > > > we are so entrenched in self survival, and so need to follow the > > > > > > group, that predatory leaders like this can emerge and pillage, > > > > > > using > > > > > > rhetoric that speaks of group unity and identity, superficially > > > > > > filling the needs of the group while confiscating the less visible > > > > > > assets. New technology is not a be all end all for us - but the > > > > > > wire > > > > > > tapping, text message retrieval, cell phone recording does allow > > > > > > enough transparency that these folks have a much harder time of it > > > > > > now. My guess is, that for all their "evil" ingenuity, they will > > > > > > need > > > > > > to find ways to lead more honestly to survive now and in the future. > > > > > > Is it evil? Is it part of human nature or development? Has it > > > > > > always > > > > > > been here? Will it ever go away? > > > > > > > On Mar 17, 9:03 am, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > On 17 Mrz., 00:15, gabbydott <[email protected]> wrote:> Come > > > > > > > on, Francis, you are an intelligent man. What are you saying > > > > > > > > about not knowing how many witnesses of the disappearance of > > > > > > > > Jews, > > > > > > > > Communists, and mentally ill people were evil? In respect to > > > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > dumbness they were all evil, of course. Their loved ones often > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > have focused on other qualities in them, obviously. > > > > > > > > Lost in translation? > > > > > > > It occurred to me, Gabby, that the word, "evil" in English is used > > > > > > > somewhat differently to its German equivalent "böse". In German > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > word is used much more > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
