This one one of the many conundrums that led me to Atheism. What purpose is
served to a God by caring about the individuals, versus caring for the system
as a whole?
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Gruff, this is the reason for my edit above. I don't see that God
would have a Will for us. Our lives are not the result of a Will of
God but more so the Will of humanity, individually and as a whole. To
suggest a Will of God would thrust one into a search pattern trying to
find what that Will is for the individual thereby veering the
individual off the path of personal will. This is the premise of many
a religion, that Individual Will is somehow the Pandora's box of all
humanity's ills, that we should submit to a Divine Will.
On May 20, 12:19 pm, gruff <[email protected]> wrote:
> I simply don't see why the world or the universe has to have objective
> meaning. Why can't it just be and let any meaning or purpose comes
> from what we make of it. Is it not this way in our own individual
> lives? They gain meaning and purpose in what we make of them.
>
> On May 20, 3:19 am, Justintruth <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I think that there is a way where scientific reasoning has established
> > that the meaning of the world is basically a bunch of objects moving
> > in space. To that way of reasoning, strictly speaking it is not
> > science but scientism, further questions about what the world means
> > would reveal only information that is subjective and therefore only
> > about your perceptions and hence, unlike the "external" world, unreal.
> > What is needed instead is factual investigation of the external
> > particulars. What is needed is science itself. It is the only real
> > truth.
>
> > The dominant alternative to this view is to to realize that the world
> > means in time. Basically, to speak in scientismist terms, which is
> > distortive but sometimes the only way to communicate.... The world is
> > like a meaning transmitter. In some views of this, meaning means and
> > one then is "called" to respond, meaning to recognize what has been
> > said and, to respond appropriately. Sometimes it is called a "voice"
> > and in fact it can be remarkably like one but it is not audible but
> > rather the meaning spoken is just plain clear. Ultimately ones
> > response to that is the foundation of ethics in that world view, and
> > it is also the foundation of aesthetics. In some views of this the
> > response is captured in what science views as the objective world,
> > meaning that the content of the meaning of the world and ones response
> > is,... I will use a vague term deliberately and avoid using the word
> > "cause" intentionally... "reflected" in the "external" part of the
> > world. Some believe that no causality is involved and it is merely
> > synchronistic which implies a non random arrangement and some, as in
> > some views of karma believe there is a kind of cause and effect
> > involved.
>
> > In either case, if you are originally convinced of scientism, and
> > really believe that the category of reality is the "external" world,
> > then this "reflection" is necessary to confirm the reality of the
> > mystical experience. However, if you in fact have the experience there
> > is no need for this confirmation and the need for "miracles" in the
> > extreme sense to provide "evidence" is ridiculous. You can just look
> > outside your window, or at your ceiling while lying in bed. Nothing
> > more is needed.
>
> > So on one level this is an exhortation or encouragement or assurance
> > that we can "manipulate" this ... again being vague and using a term I
> > learned in a bar from a brilliant young mystic.... the synchromesh....
> > that we have both the ability and most importantly that we have the
> > discipline required to conform. That it is not only in our capability
> > but easy. Also that conformance will in fact rid the evil not just
> > from our minds but from our lives.
>
> > It is a characteristic of the tradition he writes from, that of the
> > shaman, that "manipulation" is in fact possible but anyone who has
> > read his work understands that this is not simple "techne" but
> > requires the shaman to walk the path. It is after all the "way of
> > knowledge" not "knowledge". And attempting to mix one's own will up in
> > this and to dominate this reality is Luciferian. But.. well as they
> > say in the mystical world business... shit happens and if its not
> > "effects" or "affects" its something so close to it as to be
> > practically indistinguishable. Things do occur . Still the notion of
> > manipulation and its contrast with participation is very interesting
> > and it is doubtful that one can really cut anything out, or in fact do
> > anything, when one walks on the way, except choose to listen or not.
> > The role of the will becomes different. It is not the expression of
> > ego. One can not but conform to the way, or refuse it as it reveals
> > itself. In that sense what is meant is that you in fact can conform
> > and if that means that, at this moment you must get up out of your
> > chair and leave your computer behind and all of your job, your husband
> > and maybe even your kids - everything- if that is what conformance
> > means, then he is saying don't worry. If you are knocked off your
> > horse you can quit being a soldier - no problem. All of that can be
> > cut out easily. It is not hard to walk the way of knowledge. Giving up
> > those things is easy. It is not like the man who was told to "Sell
> > everything he had and give it to the poor and come follow me." who
> > went away saddened. It is easy. Just let it go. The cross... no sweat.
> > (Excuse me while I get my tongue extracted from my cheek)
>
> > It can get a little extreme. The bible has a story of a man called to
> > kill his own son. It is interesting in its extremity. I think that I
> > would not believe it if I personally was asked to do something like
> > that. I'd say "Oh comon I know your just kiddin...I know you...you
> > would never have me do something like that"
>
> > I think it means that our minds and lives can be made totally
> > consistent with the will of God and if it is the world will be
> > transformed. Socially, it is the core realization under the 60s that
> > we can all just decide to let all of this fighting go, we can just
> > tune in, turn on, drop out and all of the wars and unhappiness will be
> > replaced by the garden. Just do it, man.
>
> > It is the same message as the monkeys on the Japanese temple "Hear no
> > evil..." etc One can conform ones thoughts, and through them, and the
> > mystery of karma, the universe, and we can do that in an instant.
> > Decision does not take time. It must, of its nature be instantaneous.
> > It is always as he says... "in the blink of an eye". The amazing thing
> > is how enlightenment occurs in an instant. We get up and just set off.
> > Then we are "on the way"... in this case the ....Yaqui way of
> > knowledge. And then we are bulletproof. Just like the ghost shirt
> > society.
>
> > Understood through fundamentalist eyes this would be a disaster. But
> > wisdom has a way of knowing what it means properly.
>
> > How all this will be understood once the current idiotic debate
> > between science and religion is over with and we finally get down to
> > something more serious with aware people to try to understand it is
> > unknown to me. However, it is probably going to require a change in
> > the meaning of the goal of understanding itself. It will include much
> > more of the biblical sense of the word "know". And it will require
> > response. It is, after all, not a dull life. Is it?
>
> > (... now I am a little afraid that your not reading....I hope you did
> > not stop at that part about getting up from your computer and...;) .)
>
> > Anyway, Enjoy!
>
> > On May 18, 6:49 am, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > "We hardly ever realize that we can cut anything out of our lives,
> > > anytime, in theblinkof an eye."
> > > - Carlos Castaneda (1931 - )
>
> > > What do you think it means?
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