Exactly. The only natural or universal "way" that I can see is that for the most part (not absolutely) we have to work within the framework of the natural laws that seem to exist and work to keep the universe moving.
On May 20, 3:18 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > I'm with you on this one gruff. That is exactly how I feel. Their is > no universal right way; only what works for the individual. > Everything depends on desire. Conquest, domination, harmony, order, > chaos etc. etc. Who decides what the 'greater good' is? In the end > it's decided by the most skilled demagogue with the catchy-est > slogans. Such is life; can't let it bog us down. I know what I > believe and that's good enough for me. I'm grateful I feel no need to > push beliefs(and non-beliefs) on others. That road leads to heart > ache and endless frustration. > > dj > > On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 12:19 PM, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I simply don't see why the world or the universe has to have objective > > meaning. Why can't it just be and let any meaning or purpose comes > > from what we make of it. Is it not this way in our own individual > > lives? They gain meaning and purpose in what we make of them. > > > On May 20, 3:19 am, Justintruth <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I think that there is a way where scientific reasoning has established > >> that the meaning of the world is basically a bunch of objects moving > >> in space. To that way of reasoning, strictly speaking it is not > >> science but scientism, further questions about what the world means > >> would reveal only information that is subjective and therefore only > >> about your perceptions and hence, unlike the "external" world, unreal. > >> What is needed instead is factual investigation of the external > >> particulars. What is needed is science itself. It is the only real > >> truth. > > >> The dominant alternative to this view is to to realize that the world > >> means in time. Basically, to speak in scientismist terms, which is > >> distortive but sometimes the only way to communicate.... The world is > >> like a meaning transmitter. In some views of this, meaning means and > >> one then is "called" to respond, meaning to recognize what has been > >> said and, to respond appropriately. Sometimes it is called a "voice" > >> and in fact it can be remarkably like one but it is not audible but > >> rather the meaning spoken is just plain clear. Ultimately ones > >> response to that is the foundation of ethics in that world view, and > >> it is also the foundation of aesthetics. In some views of this the > >> response is captured in what science views as the objective world, > >> meaning that the content of the meaning of the world and ones response > >> is,... I will use a vague term deliberately and avoid using the word > >> "cause" intentionally... "reflected" in the "external" part of the > >> world. Some believe that no causality is involved and it is merely > >> synchronistic which implies a non random arrangement and some, as in > >> some views of karma believe there is a kind of cause and effect > >> involved. > > >> In either case, if you are originally convinced of scientism, and > >> really believe that the category of reality is the "external" world, > >> then this "reflection" is necessary to confirm the reality of the > >> mystical experience. However, if you in fact have the experience there > >> is no need for this confirmation and the need for "miracles" in the > >> extreme sense to provide "evidence" is ridiculous. You can just look > >> outside your window, or at your ceiling while lying in bed. Nothing > >> more is needed. > > >> So on one level this is an exhortation or encouragement or assurance > >> that we can "manipulate" this ... again being vague and using a term I > >> learned in a bar from a brilliant young mystic.... the synchromesh.... > >> that we have both the ability and most importantly that we have the > >> discipline required to conform. That it is not only in our capability > >> but easy. Also that conformance will in fact rid the evil not just > >> from our minds but from our lives. > > >> It is a characteristic of the tradition he writes from, that of the > >> shaman, that "manipulation" is in fact possible but anyone who has > >> read his work understands that this is not simple "techne" but > >> requires the shaman to walk the path. It is after all the "way of > >> knowledge" not "knowledge". And attempting to mix one's own will up in > >> this and to dominate this reality is Luciferian. But.. well as they > >> say in the mystical world business... shit happens and if its not > >> "effects" or "affects" its something so close to it as to be > >> practically indistinguishable. Things do occur . Still the notion of > >> manipulation and its contrast with participation is very interesting > >> and it is doubtful that one can really cut anything out, or in fact do > >> anything, when one walks on the way, except choose to listen or not. > >> The role of the will becomes different. It is not the expression of > >> ego. One can not but conform to the way, or refuse it as it reveals > >> itself. In that sense what is meant is that you in fact can conform > >> and if that means that, at this moment you must get up out of your > >> chair and leave your computer behind and all of your job, your husband > >> and maybe even your kids - everything- if that is what conformance > >> means, then he is saying don't worry. If you are knocked off your > >> horse you can quit being a soldier - no problem. All of that can be > >> cut out easily. It is not hard to walk the way of knowledge. Giving up > >> those things is easy. It is not like the man who was told to "Sell > >> everything he had and give it to the poor and come follow me." who > >> went away saddened. It is easy. Just let it go. The cross... no sweat. > >> (Excuse me while I get my tongue extracted from my cheek) > > >> It can get a little extreme. The bible has a story of a man called to > >> kill his own son. It is interesting in its extremity. I think that I > >> would not believe it if I personally was asked to do something like > >> that. I'd say "Oh comon I know your just kiddin...I know you...you > >> would never have me do something like that" > > >> I think it means that our minds and lives can be made totally > >> consistent with the will of God and if it is the world will be > >> transformed. Socially, it is the core realization under the 60s that > >> we can all just decide to let all of this fighting go, we can just > >> tune in, turn on, drop out and all of the wars and unhappiness will be > >> replaced by the garden. Just do it, man. > > >> It is the same message as the monkeys on the Japanese temple "Hear no > >> evil..." etc One can conform ones thoughts, and through them, and the > >> mystery of karma, the universe, and we can do that in an instant. > >> Decision does not take time. It must, of its nature be instantaneous. > >> It is always as he says... "in the blink of an eye". The amazing thing > >> is how enlightenment occurs in an instant. We get up and just set off. > >> Then we are "on the way"... in this case the ....Yaqui way of > >> knowledge. And then we are bulletproof. Just like the ghost shirt > >> society. > > >> Understood through fundamentalist eyes this would be a disaster. But > >> wisdom has a way of knowing what it means properly. > > >> How all this will be understood once the current idiotic debate > >> between science and religion is over with and we finally get down to > >> something more serious with aware people to try to understand it is > >> unknown to me. However, it is probably going to require a change in > >> the meaning of the goal of understanding itself. It will include much > >> more of the biblical sense of the word "know". And it will require > >> response. It is, after all, not a dull life. Is it? > > >> (... now I am a little afraid that your not reading....I hope you did > >> not stop at that part about getting up from your computer and...;) .) > > >> Anyway, Enjoy! > > >> On May 18, 6:49 am, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > "We hardly ever realize that we can cut anything out of our lives, > >> > anytime, in theblinkof an eye." > >> > - Carlos Castaneda (1931 - ) > > >> > What do you think it means? --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
