"properly conducted and sampled polling" - arch

Unfortunately, this livelihood fell into disfavor and ridicule shortly
after the first selection of ‘W’ in the USA. For quite a while, it was
‘obvious’ that sciences such as polling were illegitimate …mainly exit
polling….


On Jun 19, 6:11 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote:
> Habermas is almost impossible to read, which is a great shame.
> Academic critique of his work actually ends up rather like Gabby's few
> lines, extrapolated to ridiculous length. He was gazetted into the
> Hitler Youth at the end of the war, something that only goes to show
> we can all end up serving perverse human interests. Francis' notion of
> what might happen through wider communication and the possible
> differences new technologies might bring to 'argument' is probably key
> to whether we have a future or not. There has been a debate around
> legitimation portrayed in academe as between Habermas, Lyotard,
> Derrida, Foucault and others. My own view is that the insularity of
> this debate (most people have barely heard of it and its protagonists)
> is itself part of the problem. Press in the UK has been ridiculing our
> unworthy politicians through expense claims leaked to one newspaper.
> Today, Parliament has "published" the details under so much black ink
> that we would know less had we been left to rely on official
> "transparency" and we will get much the same when the Iraq scandal is
> hidden from us next year. What we lack is honesty and substantial
> links between this and its use in day-to-day actions. Many people
> believe it is childish to look at work like this because the real
> world is so dirty. I suspect the real childishness lies in fear we all
> have of standing up to the bullying system, which we see as holding
> all the cards  We know bosses and politicians are bad, but are
> generally weak-kneed in the face of power and easy enough to buy off
> with a few trinkets and the threat of poverty if we stray into telling
> the truth.  Much as I like Habermas, I'm sure these days that work
> like his is pussy-footing pisswitter lamenting our lack of courage.
>
> His academic critics often referred to him as 'the Professor' as they
> felt he was advocating a system that had to be followed to put the
> system right - perhaps they feared yet another righteous theory as
> potentially Nazi or Stalinist, even if Jurgen was a man of the left.
> Academe was wet-through with cultural identity garbage back then and
> still is.  I just noticed he was weak on science, long on unnecessary
> explanation and broadly right on the destruction of what others termed
> organic links.  I was looking for an explanation of why people choose
> to follow such stupid ways or get caught up in them.  My own view is
> this happens and is a result of the way we promote lying in our
> societies.  The current situation in Iran would be a good example.  We
> don't know whether the election was fixed to favour the
> Maddinnerjacket, but there are ways to find out (properly conducted
> and sampled polling) and it ain't what Kameni is doing, even if he
> might be right about miserable Western interference.  It's too hard
> anywhere for a populace to shift through the dross to get at truth
> because of liars and what is so easily hidden or flashed in front of
> us as the good.  In our world, the child seeking to shout out that the
> Emperor is naked is already silenced.
>
> On 18 June, 20:32, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Jürgen Habermas is 80 today. He is one of the most influential
> > contemporary thinkers in the areas of philosophy, sociology and
> > cultural science:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habermas,_Jürgen
>
> > One of his most interesting works is "The Theory of Communicative
> > Action." I find his analysis of the development of contemporary
> > society interesting, particularly his analysis of the way modern
> > society can be seen as an unequal dialectic between private,
> > subjective "lifeworlds" and an ever more powerful "system." His
> > thinking in this area is useful because it offers an explanation for
> > some trends we observe in contemporary society, for example, our
> > suspicions that we are being ever more disenfranchised, although,
> > formally, we live in societies in which participation, representation
> > and equality are established. Habermas sees the "system" as taking
> > overweening power and thus becoming a source of alienation in the
> > areas of the welfare state, corporate capitalism and the culture of
> > mass consumption. The mass media plays a major role in this process.
> > Political parties are also part of this "system."
>
> > The following passage is lifted from Wikipedia (the quotations are
> > from TCA):
>
> > "In the end, systemic mechanisms suppress forms of social integration
> > even in those areas where a consensus dependent co-ordination of
> > action cannot be replaced, that is, where the symbolic reproduction of
> > the lifeworld is at stake. In these areas, the mediatization of the
> > lifeworld assumes the form of colonisation".
> > Habermas argues that Horkheimer and Adorno, like Weber before them,
> > confused system rationality with action rationality. This prevented
> > them dissecting the effects of the intrusion of steering media into a
> > differentiated lifeworld and the rationalisation of action
> > orientations that follows. They could then only identify spontaneous
> > communicative actions within areas of apparently 'non-rational'
> > action, art and love on the one hand or the charisma of the leader on
> > the other, as having any value.
> > According to Habermas, lifeworlds become colonised by steering media
> > when four things happen:
> > 1. Traditional forms of life are dismantled.
> > 2. Social roles are sufficiently differentiated.
> > 3. There are adequate rewards of leisure and money for the alienated
> > labour.
> > 4. Hopes and dreams become individuated by state canalization of
> > welfare and culture.
> > These processses are institutionalised by developing global systems of
> > jurisprudence. He here indicates the limits of an entirely juridified
> > concept of legitimation and practically calls for more anarchistic
> > 'will formation' by autonomous networks and groups.
> > "Counterinstitutions are intended to dedifferentiate some parts of the
> > formally organised domains of action, remove them from the clutches of
> > the steering media, and return these 'liberated areas' to the action
> > co-ordinating medium of reaching 
> > understanding".http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_Communicative_Action
>
> > I wonder how much the Internet (I'm thinking here of the burgeoning
> > social networks like Facebook, as well as - in a very modest way - our
> > group here and others like them, but also Wikipedia, search engines,
> > etc.) are such "counterinstitutions." Certainly the nervous actions of
> > the regimes in China and Iran in recent times would seem to reinforce
> > such views.
>
> > Francis- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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