I'm with Ian on this one. Although the EU is far from perfect and has large problems (like a tendency to bureaucracy and direct democratic deficits [generally the result of national leaders being reluctant to give up their power]), it doesn't impose cultural conformity. The tendencies to uniformity are, in my view, more the result of globalisation - one example being the classic culinary uniformity typified by a certain fast-food chain of US origin, whose golden arches can be seen all over Europe!
Social welfare entitlements and benefits vary enormously from state to state, as such issues remain under national control. The general idea is that, given a level playing field with regard to markets for goods and services that national wealth levels will, in the long term, tend to equal out, thus enabling presently poorer countries to spend more on general welfare systems. It's very much work in progress. There is a general myth - very prevelant in the US - that Europeans are taxed to the hilt to pay for what their governments provide - one poster here mentioned 50%. The reality is quite different. I just took a look at my last wage slip - as a baseline, I can state that my yearly wage is very slightly less than the average annual earnings of salaried employees in Germany. Of my gross, 15% was deducted for income tax (this includes a small amount of tax relief for 0,5 of one child [my divorced wife gets the other half!]). In addition I paid 19.9% for social security (this is half the total sum, my employer pays the other half). This finances (a still) pretty good health insurance for myself and my daughter (indeed, my elder daughter who is a full time student for whom I don't get tax relief, and her two-year- old son, also have their health insurance entitlements through my cover), unemployment insurance for eighteen months and an contribution- related state pension (according to present calculations about 57% of my current net earnings) when I reach the age of 66. Taxes cover infrastructure, roads, education, policing, defence, social welfare, etc. and all that stuff that central and local government "waste". In addition there's VAT (sales tax) of 19%, although most basic goods, like food, have a reduced rate of 7%, and other indirect taxes (energy, fuel, insurance, etc., as well as auto taxes, recently recalculated according to CO2-emissions). There are also inheritance, capital and property taxes, but there are fairly generous basic levels, below which taxation is non-existent or low. Seen from this perspective, for a little over a third of my gross earnings, I get quite a lot. Francis Francis On 29 Jul., 09:12, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > Vam I don't think there is going to be a loss of distinct cultures as the > people like their own cultures and the Netherlands is a good example. as > there are really three cultures, though one of them is a sub culture the > other isn't. As you travel through Europe you will find english to be quite > common, or at least you will find someone to speak english and help you. > > And the people of the europe like being from their homeland and their > culture. My heritage is German, my name is German including the spelling, > but believe me I am viewed as American and nothing else my dutch accent is > American. > > Now turkey has a problem, and though there are legal problems, probably the > biggest problem is that the Turks and Arabic people tend to isolate > themselves and not become part of the local culture. > > An example of this would be that I am american and because I live her in the > Netherlands I am expected to adopt dutch customs and habits and become part > of the dutch society. Now I know about 3 VS citizens and my best friend is > one of them, but though I probably know many more it is no big deal for me, > because i am integrating into society to the best of my ability. I am not > trying to make the netherlands little america. There in lies the problem > people wanting to change rather than be changed. > Allan > > On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 2:08 AM, Vamadevananda <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > > > What I am afraid of, and people of some EU nations might concur, is > > the loss of distinct culture and way of life prevalent among people > > residing in specific areas. Something like what is happening in China. > > The challenges which Turkey poses, as it knocks for its membership, is > > a case of interest in this regard. > > > The other aspect is its uniform welfare - for - all model. While it > > suits nations with high and fairly distributed per capita GDP, I > > visualise that some nations for some ( extended ) period may have to > > go for targeted benefits. I am not aware of the specifics, to complete > > the picture. > > > On Jul 29, 4:48 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I doubt the EU is much of a model of what the world needs, other than > > > as Vam has pointed out. Britain is still somewhat stupidly peripheral > > > to it. The key element we are short of all over is cooperation from > > > positions of resilient self-reliance and population restraint. > > > > On 27 July, 03:23, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Speaking on behalf of American chauvinists, I have to say we don't put > > > > much stock in the UN. They're pretty much a laughing stock to us and > > > > we resent our tax money being wasted there. The EU, however, was a > > > > good idea and is working out perhaps even better then many > > > > anticipated. Bravo. > > > > > dj > > > > > On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 5:48 AM, Vamadevananda<[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > Thorn, I spoke of the European Model, not merely of their welfare > > > > > policy and taxation structure ! I see the latter as variables, that > > > > > people in different nations may customise. > > > > > > What is of abiding interest, to me, is the spirit of cooperation it > > > > > naturalises among ( formerly, at times, bitterly sparring ) nations, > > > > > and makes it largely acceptable among citizens of diverse cultures in > > > > > the many nations constituting the Community Of Nations. > > > > > > It is so much more effective at nurturing and fostering the > > > > > transnational cooperation than, say, the UN. Perhaps, because the EU > > > > > Model is more democratic and representative of the common people > > > > > within it. In stark contrast, the UN is only representative of the > > > > > Govts in different countries, and that too is inequitous. > > > > > > It may be very difficult for the US, and American chauvinists, to > > > > > appreciate that the UN ( which the US dominates ) is so lousy in > > > > > effect compared to the EU ( which no one in particular overides ). > > > > > > On Jul 26, 6:47 am, Thorn <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> I must say something about Eurpope leading the way for the poor..now > > > > >> they get taxed 50% of their paycheck and this is half of what they > > > > >> make so therefore this does keep the poor poor all their life until > > > > >> they get aged..and then they get some what of a house or apt...and > > > > >> medical ..than for a hip surgery you might get in at two years down > > > > >> the line so let me ask you this so God forbid if that is a good > > > > >> structure.....the poor should be thankful for that one -instead of > > > > >> having more of their paycheck so they can live a better quailty life > > > > >> while their younger and their family's.. > > > > >> thorn of a rose > > > > >> On Jul 24, 11:53 am, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> > I 'd agree, Don ! Not just the bomb, there are several very > > powerful > > > > >> > despots / despotic cliques riding their respective proverbial > > tigers. > > > > >> > There are massive armies, much arms and armaments around, quite > > some > > > > >> > with non - state actors, too. Several basic resources are > > projected > > > > >> > to be in short supply. There is this very real danger of present > > > > >> > inequities getting far too magnified, eroding belief, respect and > > > > >> > committment to ' universal ' values. > > > > > >> > I believe that at some stage, we would not be able to afford power > > - > > > > >> > and money - found competition. Much will depend on whether we are > > > > >> > able to live in cooperation, despite differences in power and > > riches, > > > > >> > and national interests. Cooperation at reducing pollution, and > > global > > > > >> > warming, at making appropriate technologies available to poor and > > > > >> > developing economies, whatever their capacity to afford, would > > > > > >> > It is in this respect that the European model shows the way. And, > > EU > > > > >> > could do this still better. > > > > > >> > On Jul 24, 11:12 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> > > Sheesh. I thought I had a swollen head. This guy knows what > > it's > > > > >> > > like to be the smartest person in the room. That said, how in > > the > > > > >> > > world can you speculate about 20 years from now and not even > > once > > > > >> > > mention da BOMB? I'm sure he did it on purpose but why? > > Assuming > > > > >> > > Europe isn't a giant crater by 2030 he may very well be correct. > > > > >> > > Socialism will prevent people from improving themselves so our > > current > > > > >> > > super-rich will become richer and not have to worry about > > competition > > > > >> > > from new super-rich folk. Europe's combined GDP has been larger > > then > > > > >> > > the U.S. for several years now and I don't see that changing; > > ever. I > > > > >> > > personally believe even without a nuke going off in a major city > > his > > > > >> > > outlook is entirely too rosy. > > > > > >> > > dj > > > > > >> > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 10:58 AM, frantheman< > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > This is one vision of a possible world future: > > >http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,637830,00.html > > > > > >> > > > Any comments? > > > > > >> > > > Francis- Hide quoted text - > > > > > >> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > >> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > -- > ( > ) > I_D Allan --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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