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It isn't just the crusade part that baffles us. Let us read what Ian
posted in one of threads (
http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-eye/browse_thread/thread/b4e5458bcee19c38/1de77c23e89d9e29#
...
" I find the notion of God or the divine to be irrelevant when trying
to face
problems or pain in my life. This life, as I understand and perceive
it, is
a closed system; a singular reality, no need for, and no evidence of,
divinity. For example, when I want to drive change in my life, and
derive
strength for this, I find the idea of looking to the supernatural to
be very
odd. After all, if your guess about God's nature is inaccurate, then
this
so-called "divinity" will appear to be a very fickle or erratic thing
indeed! Sometimes it gives you what you pray and hope for, sometimes
it
shits all over you. Religious sorts all sorts ways of explaining their
way
out of this. It's called faith; the lie at any price. It either fuels
anxiety in trying to second-guess it or makes people vacuous morons
who
invest no real emotion in their life. I feel sorry for both.
" For me, the notion of the divine is an unreliable tool for dealing
with
problems in our reality. I prefer to deal with this reality, the only
verifiable reality, in strictly human and non-spiritual terms.
Metaphysical
whimsy is a form of delusion and does not allow an individual to
really
face or understand self-evident facts; worse, it can make people
outright
deny cause, effect, and result. Someone dying has "gone to a better
place",
someone with a serious illness is "facing a trial set for them by
God", or
someone with a propensity for murder is "doing the devil's work".
" This is no basis for understanding or dealing with our world.
" I don't say that I have a perfect solution, but I do gain enormous
personal
strength by unflinchingly trying to distil things down to their
essential
truths based upon the evidence we can rely upon. If someone dies,
that
person ceases to exist; if someone has a serious illness, the
differential
diagnosis will be genetic and/or environmental; if someone has a
propensity
for murder, we'll look to clinical psychology to find out what
motivates
them. All of these evidence-based views of our reality are far more
satisfying to me than the weak band-aid of faith. Call me a cynic,
but
unless you're very easily satisfied, the whiff of bullshit starts to
defile
the flowery notions of divinity after a while. Give me something real.
I
want to feel it, my emotions define me, remind me that life is real
and
sometimes hard. To not feel pain or despair and resolve them is to
have lead
half a life.
" I feel incredibly level facing reality in this way. Some things do
hurt, and
hurt like hell, but I am vastly more satisfied by a strictly this-
worldly
explanation and how this helps me resolve them. "
It stands out that Ian speaks of strength and ability to live through
life situations and circumstance. His is a very valid, honorable and
welcome case for pragmatism, what works, and so on.
But, he continues in the same breath, to say that Religion, Divinity,
God, Spirit, has no place in it, because they provide nothing to
empower and enable him, because they in fact have a debilitating
effect on these capabilities ( and need ) of his.
Does he choose certainty ( and matter ) over doubt and contradiction
too soon ? Before he could see and retrieve the ' baby in the
bathwater ?' Is there a ' baby ' in the ' bathwater ?'
The integrated ( inclusive ) understanding I am alluding to has never
been easy, ever, and at the best of the times been limited to very few
who perhaps spent a lifetime pursuing that ' value.' Why has the
value been debunked ?
On Aug 11, 4:11 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote:
> So, why are the Materialists or Atheists saying they alone are valid,
> true, correct and, by implication and their crusade, have the sole
> right to exist or occupy the thought and knowledge space in human
> minds ?
>
> As you might expect, I don't feel like I'm on a crusade. While a
> Christian might feel obligated to 'spread the word' I feel no such
> obligation to convince others that there is no God. I have noticed,
> however, that not all atheists/agnostics are as laid back as I am. I
> really don't understand their motivations. I assume in many cases
> it's folks looking for 15 minutes of fame or just enjoying causing a
> stir. Basically turning themselves into Celebrity Assholes. I see
> too much good from churches to want to ruin religion for anyone.
>
> Didn't the commies try to stamp out religion? Maybe it's a commie
> pinko thing. Orn, can you explain it?
>
> dj
>
> heh
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 5:48 AM, Vamadevananda<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > One dimension of the perennial debate between Theists and Atheists,
> > Spiritualists and Materialists, has been of the kind :
>
> > There is spirit. Where is the spirit ?
>
> > There is God. Where is God ?
>
> > There is One, Whole, Unity. Where is One, Whole, Unity ?
>
> > Now, dialectically, the discussion goes far but nowhere. So, let me
> > place the issue in a familiar context that may perhaps express the
> > separation and the connection between these two poles. Here it goes :
>
> > My Father and I are one. >>> Unity
>
> > I am the Way. >>> Connection
>
> > I know not ; only my Father knows. >>> Separation
>
> > These may not exactly be his quotes but they are what Christ seems to
> > have expressed at some point of time or other. What they reveal, if
> > indeed they do, is that all three exist, are there within us, in the
> > way we are, know, think, believe, feel, and look upon upon others and
> > themselves.
>
> > So, why are the Materialists or Atheists saying they alone are valid,
> > true, correct and, by implication and their crusade, have the sole
> > right to exist or occupy the thought and knowledge space in human
> > minds ?
>
> > Or, is their crusade merely reactive, historically speaking, against
> > the ( highly unreasonable and destructive ) religious crusades and
> > millenia - long ( unreasonably subjugatory ) proselytation efforts of
> > ( mono ) theists ?
>
> > Why can't the theists realise that atheism is inevitable and atheists
> > see the Whole, the Unity, as Universe surely is, even though it is the
> > parts that are apparent to us ?
>
> > What prevents the understanding, even among people who are so well
> > informed, read, educated, and intellectually endowed ?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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