Walking up paths that have been created by others typically lead to dead ends. Religion is a path designed to grab 10% of our income. One has to find their own "path".
Although statements about non-material things are unreliable and non- proveable, I thank my lucky stars that they exist. Emotions are not material, yet they are the driving force of people's actions and reactions. Can you imagine humanity without emotions? In my experience, "Spirit" is a sweet and pure emotion, a mountain of a goosebump. On Aug 11, 8:45 am, Ian Pollard <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Vam, > > To address a your question "why are the Materialists or Atheists saying they > alone are valid?" > > That's quite a serious generalisation to make, but I believe I understand > why you make it. It's an atavistic need to return theistic thought to its > former place of universal relevance. Since humanity as become progressively > less superstitious, the remaining forms of theistic thought find themselves > in a difficult position vs. plausibility. > > As I see it, empiricism and the scientific method are humanity's most > powerful and accurate tools for answering questions about our world. Using > these tools I can prove, and repeat upon demand, a hypothesis and then apply > this learning. This -- to give some modest examples -- enables engineering, > genetics, and medicine. > > Now, given that superstitious modes of thought have been wrong about so very > much (position of the Sun, age of the Earth, witches, illness, the origin > and nature of species, etc, etc), it is right that the scientific method > casts a very dubious eye over any and all claims made by supporters of > theistic thinking. Why would it be otherwise? The burden of proof remains. > > In other words, succinctly, I'm saying the answer to your question is this: > Because of so many previous failures, it's not unreasonably to suggest that > the very core of theistic thought -- the existence of the non-material > outside of the material -- has proven itself unreliable. When you combine > this with many theists' desire to again try to position spirituality at the > top table (when it comes to answering questions about us and our world), you > can see where the conflict comes from. > > Vam also asked: "What prevents the understanding, even among people who are > so well informed, read, educated, and intellectually endowed?" > > Have you paused for a moment to consider that the lack of understanding is > yours, Vam? Remember, some of us were theists before and have walked up the > path you're on and found it's a dead-end. > > Ian > > 2009/8/11 Vamadevananda <[email protected]> > > > > > > > It isn't just the crusade part that baffles us. Let us read what Ian > > posted in one of threads ( > > >http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-eye/browse_thread/thread/b4e5458... > > ... > > > " I find the notion of God or the divine to be irrelevant when trying > > to face > > problems or pain in my life. This life, as I understand and perceive > > it, is > > a closed system; a singular reality, no need for, and no evidence of, > > divinity. For example, when I want to drive change in my life, and > > derive > > strength for this, I find the idea of looking to the supernatural to > > be very > > odd. After all, if your guess about God's nature is inaccurate, then > > this > > so-called "divinity" will appear to be a very fickle or erratic thing > > indeed! Sometimes it gives you what you pray and hope for, sometimes > > it > > shits all over you. Religious sorts all sorts ways of explaining their > > way > > out of this. It's called faith; the lie at any price. It either fuels > > anxiety in trying to second-guess it or makes people vacuous morons > > who > > invest no real emotion in their life. I feel sorry for both. > > > " For me, the notion of the divine is an unreliable tool for dealing > > with > > problems in our reality. I prefer to deal with this reality, the only > > verifiable reality, in strictly human and non-spiritual terms. > > Metaphysical > > whimsy is a form of delusion and does not allow an individual to > > really > > face or understand self-evident facts; worse, it can make people > > outright > > deny cause, effect, and result. Someone dying has "gone to a better > > place", > > someone with a serious illness is "facing a trial set for them by > > God", or > > someone with a propensity for murder is "doing the devil's work". > > > " This is no basis for understanding or dealing with our world. > > > " I don't say that I have a perfect solution, but I do gain enormous > > personal > > strength by unflinchingly trying to distil things down to their > > essential > > truths based upon the evidence we can rely upon. If someone dies, > > that > > person ceases to exist; if someone has a serious illness, the > > differential > > diagnosis will be genetic and/or environmental; if someone has a > > propensity > > for murder, we'll look to clinical psychology to find out what > > motivates > > them. All of these evidence-based views of our reality are far more > > satisfying to me than the weak band-aid of faith. Call me a cynic, > > but > > unless you're very easily satisfied, the whiff of bullshit starts to > > defile > > the flowery notions of divinity after a while. Give me something real. > > I > > want to feel it, my emotions define me, remind me that life is real > > and > > sometimes hard. To not feel pain or despair and resolve them is to > > have lead > > half a life. > > > " I feel incredibly level facing reality in this way. Some things do > > hurt, and > > hurt like hell, but I am vastly more satisfied by a strictly this- > > worldly > > explanation and how this helps me resolve them. " > > > It stands out that Ian speaks of strength and ability to live through > > life situations and circumstance. His is a very valid, honorable and > > welcome case for pragmatism, what works, and so on. > > > But, he continues in the same breath, to say that Religion, Divinity, > > God, Spirit, has no place in it, because they provide nothing to > > empower and enable him, because they in fact have a debilitating > > effect on these capabilities ( and need ) of his. > > > Does he choose certainty ( and matter ) over doubt and contradiction > > too soon ? Before he could see and retrieve the ' baby in the > > bathwater ?' Is there a ' baby ' in the ' bathwater ?' > > > The integrated ( inclusive ) understanding I am alluding to has never > > been easy, ever, and at the best of the times been limited to very few > > who perhaps spent a lifetime pursuing that ' value.' Why has the > > value been debunked ? > > > On Aug 11, 4:11 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > So, why are the Materialists or Atheists saying they alone are valid, > > > true, correct and, by implication and their crusade, have the sole > > > right to exist or occupy the thought and knowledge space in human > > > minds ? > > > > As you might expect, I don't feel like I'm on a crusade. While a > > > Christian might feel obligated to 'spread the word' I feel no such > > > obligation to convince others that there is no God. I have noticed, > > > however, that not all atheists/agnostics are as laid back as I am. I > > > really don't understand their motivations. I assume in many cases > > > it's folks looking for 15 minutes of fame or just enjoying causing a > > > stir. Basically turning themselves into Celebrity Assholes. I see > > > too much good from churches to want to ruin religion for anyone. > > > > Didn't the commies try to stamp out religion? Maybe it's a commie > > > pinko thing. Orn, can you explain it? > > > > dj > > > > heh > > > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 5:48 AM, Vamadevananda<[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > One dimension of the perennial debate between Theists and Atheists, > > > > Spiritualists and Materialists, has been of the kind : > > > > > There is spirit. Where is the spirit ? > > > > > There is God. Where is God ? > > > > > There is One, Whole, Unity. Where is One, Whole, Unity ? > > > > > Now, dialectically, the discussion goes far but nowhere. So, let me > > > > place the issue in a familiar context that may perhaps express the > > > > separation and the connection between these two poles. Here it goes : > > > > > My Father and I are one. >>> Unity > > > > > I am the Way. >>> Connection > > > > > I know not ; only my Father knows. >>> Separation > > > > > These may not exactly be his quotes but they are what Christ seems to > > > > have expressed at some point of time or other. What they reveal, if > > > > indeed they do, is that all three exist, are there within us, in the > > > > way we are, know, think, believe, feel, and look upon upon others and > > > > themselves. > > > > > So, why are the Materialists or Atheists saying they alone are valid, > > > > true, correct and, by implication and their crusade, have the sole > > > > right to exist or occupy the thought and knowledge space in human > > > > minds ? > > > > > Or, is their crusade merely reactive, historically speaking, against > > > > the ( highly unreasonable and destructive ) religious crusades and > > > > millenia - long ( unreasonably subjugatory ) proselytation efforts of > > > > ( mono ) theists ? > > > > > Why can't the theists realise that atheism is inevitable and atheists > > > > see the Whole, the Unity, as Universe surely is, even though it is the > > > > parts that are apparent to us ? > > > > > What prevents the understanding, even among people who are so well > > > > informed, read, educated, and intellectually endowed ?- Hide quoted > > text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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