Well then why do you rely on them for the military or for maintaining
streets or administering justice?

Why do you always substitute questions for answers?

Your argument has the obvious structure of the false dilemma either
charities or government... ignoring the rather obvious possibility of
charities and government.

The real question is how an unexamined life can lead to political
conservatism and how, once that avoidance is established, can an
interest be rekindled or the willfulness that is at the center of the
will to power can be tempered by its own actual desires. The answer,
of course, is art. I hope, and in fact believe, that the young or
maybe even yet to be born will rekindle artistic expression and once
again show the world how to live. They are never rich when they start
out. As they say, harder for a rich man to .....

But to answer most directly - because I have my vote and I can do what
I want with it. I can foster my own interests by ensuring that there
is a safety net. In government, properly structured as a democracy, a
man has a single vote independent of his wealth. This provides a check
to economic power. If however, the government controls the economy
completely the check provided by wealth on the government is not
provided and you have the opposite problem.

The real problem is how to check the desire for domination carried out
either through unfettered greed and its eventual control of all
aspects of everyone’s lives or through the direct implementation of
concentrated power in governmental hands achieving the same thing.

Focault has important insights into how we can, acting together as
"the masses" impair the attainment of totalitarianism achieved either
through economic domination or political domination. It all comes down
to privacy. What is necessary is to strip away the ability of those in
power to remain private. To have laws for example - eventually – that
establish that those in power are not allowed to meet or even talk
except through a technical means that allows everyone to see. Before
that however we need to establish international voting rights, with
direct election of our representatives and wholly new and orders of
magnitude greater constraints on power.

There is a limit to what either charity of government can do in
someone’s life to promote their benefit. Sooner or latter, if they
truly are to be ok, then they need to be independent and contributory
sources of their own benefit and - for their sake- and not only the
sake of those that they will benefit - they need to be contributory
sources of the benefit of others. But that does not mean that private
charity or government can make no contribution. And there is the
problem of the children of those who for whatever reason fail to
provide for them.

You might reflect your question back on yourself and ask why you are
not doing more instead of writing in this news group if you are so
concerned.

If the answer is that you believe insights into foundation are needed
right now and you are sincere in attempting to form them then that is
great. If however, you are one of these hacks whose only purpose is to
drive a wedge between people and their own political interests, to
separate them from their vote in a sense, in order to marshal those
votes in favor of those whose considerable economic power chafes at
the idea of any limit being imposed on their power and for whom
freedom itself, freedom ultimately from their own desires vice freedom
in order to genuinely pursue their desires, is the only value, and a
value that so conceived is as empty of content as a mirror reflecting
on itself. If you’re one of those deeply despairing kind, for whom the
only pleasure when they eat a steak in a very expensive restaurant is
that they can eat it there and others cannot, and the fact that the
cow was slaughtered for them vice they for the cow, if you are one of
those angry despairing kind (you can hear it both Marxism and those
that have elevated Rand to stature) then you simply must be defeated
politically.

There is plenty of room for a more reasoned approach. The real
question is how to check all forms of human organization that are
pyramidical. Governmental, business, religious, and non-govermental
organizations to include all forms both legal and non-legal. What is
needed is a comprehensive look at power and how it exercises itself in
pyramids. Your idea that it is the single man against the government
is severely flawed. It is the single man against any form of
domination including the government. The false dilemma underneath your
post has been successfully used to drive a wedge between people and
their interests.

You can see the attack on teachers, lawyers, government, all those
that check economic might, as a fairly good thing as long as the
teachers lawyers and government wage their own propaganda campaign to
fight it and things stay in relative balance. This is needed until the
will to power can ultimately be resolved in a genuine discovery of its
emptiness that comes with enlightenment.

Lately, it has been too little government, not too much. Globalization
of markets has succeeded but globalization of the labor market and
political democracy has not. I look forward to the time when all basic
needs are covered, no one is allowed to starve, everyone has a place
to sleep and when they are sick they are cared for. Then the artists
can compete to keep us entertained. Scarcity is the real problem but
we must not skew the economy by disenfranchising legitimate
governmental use as a component of a necessary check on the political
power of the rich.


On Aug 27, 11:43 pm, BB47 <[email protected]> wrote:
> What is interesting to me is how those of you who keep going back to
> “we are helping those in need”  prefer not to do it all yourselves but
> rather turn it over to the state, which is an external entity composed
> of bureaucrats.  It is almost as if you are saying  ”I can’t  decide
> how to do it best myself, I don’t even want to choose where to put my
> helping money, I can’t organize a group or a charity, (even though
> they use mostly volunteers, which are WAY more cost effective, FREE in
> fact.)  No, I would rather you the State just did everything and I can
> still have that helping the needy feeling and not have to choose”
> States do not use volunteers very often. They have to pay them
> exceptional wages and benefits, thus diluting the effectiveness.  What
> you seem to be saying is “they know better than I do”  That is OK with
> me, it just seems like giving away yourself to the state, which is the
> thing I am against.  If you believe so strongly in helping the needy,
> why not just do it without the state?  I would like to choose the
> areas I think need the most help.   Governments that take most of your
> money don’t let you do that.
>
>    Doctors without Borders is an amazing group, (who need MONEY for
> some reason, I don‘t know why. ) They didn’t wait around for some
> bureaucrat to do something, they just did it themselves.
>
>    And when the State sends troops to Afghanistan or does something
> else you don‘t like?  In the name of “helping and protecting?”  Too
> late, you handed your money and your control over to “them” already.
> It is always “them”  who get to choose. You think you are choosing,
> but it is clear that you are not.  You can make a fuss, but it did not
> stop them did it?
>
>    You know what the ULTIMATE in “voting” is?  Capitalism.  Every
> single dollar you spend is a vote. A vote that will be counted too!
> Can’t be taken away from you.  Everything you choose to spend money on
> is a vote for it.  Think about that the next time you spend your
> money, what you have left of it, you already voted to give most of
> your choices away already.  You don’t approve of something?  Don’t buy
> it.  There is no more powerful message, and it is your direct vote.
>
>    I believe in personal choice.  If you don’t, that is OK with me.
>
> On Aug 27, 7:44 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I do like Kunkel's take on capitalistic ventures and time. "Not the
> > least way that Marxism is opposed to capitalism is in its relationship
> > to time. Capitalist culture approaches a pure instantaneousness: no
> > future, no past".
> > Sure it's true that the culture of capitalism sees the now and
> > disregards the ramifications, such as issues of environmental
> > destruction, causal poverty and overall degradation of the extended
> > life cycle.  So we do have profits in the hundreds of billions while
> > little attention is paid to the imperative which then leads to the
> > death of ducks.
> > Overall I don't think there is anything new when viewing the annals of
> > human history, the deaths of many for the ideals of the few.  I think
> > it's a great topic which hopefully can elevate the group perspective
> > and focus.  Thanks Chris!
>
> > On Aug 27, 10:12 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > From 
> > > here:http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/08/24/what-we-are-not-emb...
>
> > > "
>
> > > Here is a good debate proposition: It ought to be less embarrassing to 
> > > have
> > > been influenced by Ayn Rand than by Karl Marx.
>
> > > The most powerful way to argue the affirmative is to compare the number of
> > > human beings murdered by the devotees of each. That line of attack ought 
> > > to
> > > be decisive, but I’m afraid it won’t get you far with the multitude of
> > > highly-self-regarded thinkers influenced by Karl Marx. Fact is, commitment
> > > to some kind of socialism and fluency in the jargon of Marxism used to be
> > > mandatory for serious intellectuals. And there’s something glamorous in 
> > > the
> > > very idea of the intellectual. Even for those of us who came of age after
> > > 1989, Marxism, like cigarettes, remains linked by association to the idea 
> > > of
> > > the intellectual, and so, like cigarettes, shares in the intellectual’s
> > > glamour. I don’t know if cigarettes or Marxism have killed more people, 
> > > but
> > > it’s pretty clear cigarettes are more actively stigmatized. Marxists,
> > > neo-Marxists, crypto-Marxists, post-Marxists, etc. have an enduring
> > > influence on intellectual fashion. So it is not only possible proudly to
> > > confess Marx’s influence on one’s thought, but it remains possible in some
> > > quarters to impress by doing so. It ought to be embarrassing, but it 
> > > isn’t.
> > > Being a bit of a Marxist is like having a closet full of pirate blouses 
> > > but
> > > never having to worry."
>
> > > This gave me pause for consideration. Rand's philosophies have been much
> > > maligned as "uncompassionate", while certain "socialist" (Marxist 
> > > Communist)
> > > policies have been held up as an ideal, and yet, how many people have been
> > > killed in the name of Randian philosophy, and how many have been killed in
> > > the name of Marxist philosophy?
>
> > > What do YOU think? ;)- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
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