“I see no merit or value in the idea of patriotism, to my mind it serves to divide mankind and seriously renders the coming together as a species, rather than as distinct 'subsets' of the same specise quite impossible. If we are to feel prinde in the achivents of our countries then logicaly we should then feel shame for the crimes, yet I don't think I can point to a single patriot willing to feel such shame.” – Lee
Lee, there is merit in what you say here. And, I will quibble with a few words and notions a bit, OK? :- ) You make the claim that there is no merit in …. There is merit. It allows humans to feel a part of a larger group. Yes, I know that you were not only speaking of this in a much larger view but also about “the IDEA of patriotism”. In a larger sense, yes, finding a more inclusive unity would appear to be preferable. True. And, on the other hand (I just saw Fiddler on the Roof, Topol’s final tour.), few today would embrace any sort of world order, be it political, economic, spiritual etc. No? And, as to the IDEA of patriotism…feeling pride in and “love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it” [http:// www.onelook.com/?w=patriotism&ls=a ] on the surface at least in innocuous enough. As reality is today, many countries are in fact threatened by other countries, whether one defines the country in terms of its leaders or the group think of its people. The reasons are legion. So, in this sense value and merit can be found in a willingness to sacrifice for an ideal, let alone a physical area of land. (country) Further, IF one does much in an attempt to thwart such innate movements towards an apparently limited unity, what would be the result on a the possibilities of a larger one? (rhetorical Q) Truth is, I don’t know. I’m sure the answer would be multifaceted. Continuing with your “Sticky Knot”, yes, I would agree that one who sees the good of a country should (LOGICALY) see the not so good. Yet, the very notion of patriotism is not founded upon any sort of dry logic. It includes all facets of the human being, including emotions. So, in this sense, tunnel vision would be expected. In fact, like an army at war, to see some things (like the opponent as being human) and not others is often a requirement for the human psyche to continue to go forth and do things. So, say IF one thought that stopping the Nazi army was a ‘good’ thing, clearly having to kill as many humans as were killed, let alone those in Japan would be by extension not only of merit and value, but a necessity. Lastly, my guess is that the way you would define ‘patriot’ would exclude those who can see the big picture, so, in that sense, you have set the conditions and get the result as defined in your premise. All of the above aside, for decades I have found that blind nationalism more often than not is just that … blind. Any such view misses the big picture. Some who saw this during the Viet Nam era left the US to keep from having to fight and kill for the gipper. That was one alternative. There were many others. What would one think about fragging? The morality of it all is quite complex. So, yes, most of those who shout blindly for a vision/ideal can be seen as keeping a larger ideal/vision/unity from happening. This is one reason I go into rants when I see such uninformed views and activities unfold. On Sep 1, 5:28 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > Perhaps the tilte is a bit missleading in that it is only an indirect > referance to the topic I wish to talk about. > > Something Chris said last week about cultural differances had me > pondering over the weekend about it, specificaly how strong an effect > our culture has on our mindset, and whether or not it is possible to > formulate ideas that transend culture. > > So to kick the ball about a bit, I thought if I intruduced this > particular sticky knot, and asked us all to bear in mind wheter or not > or culture has any bearing on our answers to it, and if so what > effect, then perhaps we could find out. > > Sticky Knot. > > I see no merit or value in the idea of patriotism, to my mind it > serves to divide mankind and seriously renders the coming together as > a species, rather than as distinct 'subsets' of the same specise quite > impossible. > If we are to feel prinde in the achivents of our countries then > logicaly we should then feel shame for the crimes, yet I don't think I > can point to a single patriot willing to feel such shame. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
