In the US, when President Eisenhower gave his farewell speech, he was going to mention the "political, military industrial complex". Since he at the time had a fairly good relationship with congress, he removed the political part. This according to one of his progeny.
On Sep 1, 7:29 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > I watched the film of Naomi Klein's 'Disaster Shock' a couple of hours > back. This rather puts war and terror at the door of free market > carpet baggers. I have long believed this to be true - the 'road to > serfdom' always being built by an elite. Who are they these days? > > On 1 Sep, 21:07, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > “I see no merit or value in the idea of patriotism, to my mind it > > serves to divide mankind and seriously renders the coming together as > > a species, rather than as distinct 'subsets' of the same specise > > quite > > impossible. > > If we are to feel prinde in the achivents of our countries then > > logicaly we should then feel shame for the crimes, yet I don't think > > I > > can point to a single patriot willing to feel such shame.” – Lee > > > Lee, there is merit in what you say here. And, I will quibble with a > > few words and notions a bit, OK? :- ) > > > You make the claim that there is no merit in …. There is merit. It > > allows humans to feel a part of a larger group. Yes, I know that you > > were not only speaking of this in a much larger view but also about > > “the IDEA of patriotism”. In a larger sense, yes, finding a more > > inclusive unity would appear to be preferable. True. And, on the other > > hand (I just saw Fiddler on the Roof, Topol’s final tour.), few today > > would embrace any sort of world order, be it political, economic, > > spiritual etc. No? And, as to the IDEA of patriotism…feeling pride in > > and “love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it” > > [http://www.onelook.com/?w=patriotism&ls=a] on the surface at least in > > innocuous enough. As reality is today, many countries are in fact > > threatened by other countries, whether one defines the country in > > terms of its leaders or the group think of its people. The reasons are > > legion. So, in this sense value and merit can be found in a > > willingness to sacrifice for an ideal, let alone a physical area of > > land. (country) > > > Further, IF one does much in an attempt to thwart such innate > > movements towards an apparently limited unity, what would be the > > result on a the possibilities of a larger one? (rhetorical Q) Truth > > is, I don’t know. I’m sure the answer would be multifaceted. > > > Continuing with your “Sticky Knot”, yes, I would agree that one who > > sees the good of a country should (LOGICALY) see the not so good. Yet, > > the very notion of patriotism is not founded upon any sort of dry > > logic. It includes all facets of the human being, including emotions. > > So, in this sense, tunnel vision would be expected. In fact, like an > > army at war, to see some things (like the opponent as being human) and > > not others is often a requirement for the human psyche to continue to > > go forth and do things. So, say IF one thought that stopping the Nazi > > army was a ‘good’ thing, clearly having to kill as many humans as were > > killed, let alone those in Japan would be by extension not only of > > merit and value, but a necessity. > > > Lastly, my guess is that the way you would define ‘patriot’ would > > exclude those who can see the big picture, so, in that sense, you have > > set the conditions and get the result as defined in your premise. > > > All of the above aside, for decades I have found that blind > > nationalism more often than not is just that … blind. Any such view > > misses the big picture. Some who saw this during the Viet Nam era left > > the US to keep from having to fight and kill for the gipper. That was > > one alternative. There were many others. What would one think about > > fragging? The morality of it all is quite complex. > > > So, yes, most of those who shout blindly for a vision/ideal can be > > seen as keeping a larger ideal/vision/unity from happening. This is > > one reason I go into rants when I see such uninformed views and > > activities unfold. > > > On Sep 1, 5:28 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Perhaps the tilte is a bit missleading in that it is only an indirect > > > referance to the topic I wish to talk about. > > > > Something Chris said last week about cultural differances had me > > > pondering over the weekend about it, specificaly how strong an effect > > > our culture has on our mindset, and whether or not it is possible to > > > formulate ideas that transend culture. > > > > So to kick the ball about a bit, I thought if I intruduced this > > > particular sticky knot, and asked us all to bear in mind wheter or not > > > or culture has any bearing on our answers to it, and if so what > > > effect, then perhaps we could find out. > > > > Sticky Knot. > > > > I see no merit or value in the idea of patriotism, to my mind it > > > serves to divide mankind and seriously renders the coming together as > > > a species, rather than as distinct 'subsets' of the same specise quite > > > impossible. > > > If we are to feel prinde in the achivents of our countries then > > > logicaly we should then feel shame for the crimes, yet I don't think I > > > can point to a single patriot willing to feel such shame.- Hide quoted > > > text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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