One main issue with Afghanistan and war there today is that even BO, when asked, could not come up with a vision of what a 'win' would look like. And, of course, it is said by most that OBL has long left the country.
In a way, I am happy he admits this. I like this better than looking for invisible WMDs. On Sep 2, 9:18 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > In a nutshell Rigsby - but how does it work so well and why can't we > stop it and do something more sensible? I've noticed a couple of > reports that we are blowing up our own helicopters in Afghanistan (I > say 'ours' but assume we Brits are still paying you Yanks for them) - > two this week. This suggests the Taliban are finding ways to ground > them and that we can't even hold ground long enough to repair them. > Perhaps we are not 'winning'? Our ever gullible media doesn't seem to > have latched on yet. I strangely believe we need a strong military > because we have to put an end to banditry - but who would this 'we' > be? > > On 2 Sep, 17:53, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > 'We' in the US would somehow have to agree that our entire economic > > system would no longer be based upon arms manufacture. This would be > > difficult. While big pharma is the most lucrative business (makes > > largest profits) here, the amount of money spent on arms is blinding. > > This was determined long ago. IF one thinks that the monies pouring > > into Washington DC via lobbyists today is of large quantity, try to > > reduce the public monies earmarked for arms! While big pharma does > > have some chemists and sales staff it supports, along with the media > > via advertisements along with ‘drug stores’, think about the whining > > by those still employed by Boeing along with the congress members > > sucking on the military industrial complex tit. > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing > > > Since congress orders the arms and approvals payment using ‘our’ > > money, and, since ‘we’ elect these congress members, there is a link. > > > On Sep 2, 2:03 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > The removal does not render it non-existent. President Eisenhower did > > > actually coin the term regardless of it's use. The concept is as > > > alive and well now as it has always been. I don't know that we'll > > > ever be able to pull ourselves out from under it. > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military-industrial_complex#Origin_of_th... > > > > On Sep 1, 11:10 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > In the US, when President Eisenhower gave his farewell speech, he was > > > > going to mention the "political, military industrial complex". Since > > > > he at the time had a fairly good relationship with congress, he > > > > removed the political part. This according to one of his progeny. > > > > > On Sep 1, 7:29 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > I watched the film of Naomi Klein's 'Disaster Shock' a couple of hours > > > > > back. This rather puts war and terror at the door of free market > > > > > carpet baggers. I have long believed this to be true - the 'road to > > > > > serfdom' always being built by an elite. Who are they these days? > > > > > > On 1 Sep, 21:07, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > “I see no merit or value in the idea of patriotism, to my mind it > > > > > > serves to divide mankind and seriously renders the coming together > > > > > > as > > > > > > a species, rather than as distinct 'subsets' of the same specise > > > > > > quite > > > > > > impossible. > > > > > > If we are to feel prinde in the achivents of our countries then > > > > > > logicaly we should then feel shame for the crimes, yet I don't think > > > > > > I > > > > > > can point to a single patriot willing to feel such shame.” – Lee > > > > > > > Lee, there is merit in what you say here. And, I will quibble with a > > > > > > few words and notions a bit, OK? :- ) > > > > > > > You make the claim that there is no merit in …. There is merit. It > > > > > > allows humans to feel a part of a larger group. Yes, I know that you > > > > > > were not only speaking of this in a much larger view but also about > > > > > > “the IDEA of patriotism”. In a larger sense, yes, finding a more > > > > > > inclusive unity would appear to be preferable. True. And, on the > > > > > > other > > > > > > hand (I just saw Fiddler on the Roof, Topol’s final tour.), few > > > > > > today > > > > > > would embrace any sort of world order, be it political, economic, > > > > > > spiritual etc. No? And, as to the IDEA of patriotism…feeling pride > > > > > > in > > > > > > and “love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it” > > > > > > [http://www.onelook.com/?w=patriotism&ls=a] on the surface at least > > > > > > in > > > > > > innocuous enough. As reality is today, many countries are in fact > > > > > > threatened by other countries, whether one defines the country in > > > > > > terms of its leaders or the group think of its people. The reasons > > > > > > are > > > > > > legion. So, in this sense value and merit can be found in a > > > > > > willingness to sacrifice for an ideal, let alone a physical area of > > > > > > land. (country) > > > > > > > Further, IF one does much in an attempt to thwart such innate > > > > > > movements towards an apparently limited unity, what would be the > > > > > > result on a the possibilities of a larger one? (rhetorical Q) Truth > > > > > > is, I don’t know. I’m sure the answer would be multifaceted. > > > > > > > Continuing with your “Sticky Knot”, yes, I would agree that one who > > > > > > sees the good of a country should (LOGICALY) see the not so good. > > > > > > Yet, > > > > > > the very notion of patriotism is not founded upon any sort of dry > > > > > > logic. It includes all facets of the human being, including > > > > > > emotions. > > > > > > So, in this sense, tunnel vision would be expected. In fact, like an > > > > > > army at war, to see some things (like the opponent as being human) > > > > > > and > > > > > > not others is often a requirement for the human psyche to continue > > > > > > to > > > > > > go forth and do things. So, say IF one thought that stopping the > > > > > > Nazi > > > > > > army was a ‘good’ thing, clearly having to kill as many humans as > > > > > > were > > > > > > killed, let alone those in Japan would be by extension not only of > > > > > > merit and value, but a necessity. > > > > > > > Lastly, my guess is that the way you would define ‘patriot’ would > > > > > > exclude those who can see the big picture, so, in that sense, you > > > > > > have > > > > > > set the conditions and get the result as defined in your premise. > > > > > > > All of the above aside, for decades I have found that blind > > > > > > nationalism more often than not is just that … blind. Any such view > > > > > > misses the big picture. Some who saw this during the Viet Nam era > > > > > > left > > > > > > the US to keep from having to fight and kill for the gipper. That > > > > > > was > > > > > > one alternative. There were many others. What would one think about > > > > > > fragging? The morality of it all is quite complex. > > > > > > > So, yes, most of those who shout blindly for a vision/ideal can be > > > > > > seen as keeping a larger ideal/vision/unity from happening. This is > > > > > > one reason I go into rants when I see such uninformed views and > > > > > > activities unfold. > > > > > > > On Sep 1, 5:28 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Perhaps the tilte is a bit missleading in that it is only an > > > > > > > indirect > > > > > > > referance to the topic I wish to talk about. > > > > > > > > Something Chris said last week about cultural differances had me > > > > > > > pondering over the weekend about it, specificaly how strong an > > > > > > > effect > > > > > > > our culture has on our mindset, and whether or not it is possible > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > formulate ideas that transend culture. > > > > > > > > So to kick the ball about a bit, I thought if I intruduced this > > > > > > > particular sticky knot, and asked us all to bear in mind wheter > > > > > > > or not > > > > > > > or culture has any bearing on our answers to it, and if so what > > > > > > > effect, then perhaps we could find out. > > > > > > > > Sticky Knot. > > > > > > > > I see no merit or value in the idea of patriotism, to my mind it > > > > > > > serves to divide mankind and seriously renders the coming > > > > > > > together as > > > > > > > a species, rather than as distinct 'subsets' of the same specise > > > > > > > quite > > > > > > > impossible. > > > > > > > If we are to feel prinde in the achivents of our countries then > > > > > > > logicaly we should then feel shame for the crimes, yet I don't > > > > > > > think I > > > > > > > can point to a single patriot willing to feel such shame.- Hide > > > > > > > quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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