“And yet you still feel there is a non-material aspect to
consciousness? Why is that?” – SM

Because I am not talking about ‘spiritual’ sensations nor basing my
comments on feelings alone (“And yet you still FEEL…[caps mine]”).
Nowhere in my comments did I mention spirit, did I? If so, I don’t
remember doing so. My guess is that many just assume that one is
talking about theology/spirituality when one does not drink the
current Scientific meme Kool-Aid and suggests that science, as it is
mostly used today, will not be able to fully understand consciousness.
Many other atheist friends of mine go bananas over such heresy! I find
that those who appear to deify thinking hold beliefs along the nature
of “Some day (and pretty soon for sure!) we will know all there is to
know.”. Yes, this is a bit of hyperbole. No, it is not too far off
track from the thoughts of many of such ilk. I find such thinking to
be common. I, many decades ago, held similar beliefs too. So, as I see
it, no harm, no foul. This does not preclude me from pointing out
closed box thinking. The most common analogy I use is that of the old
book “Flatland…”.

Back to your question, which I do appreciate. . . greatly…it being all
open ended and all. While I am sure it would be much better to wait
until I had more time to spend more time and patience on a response, I
will have to only present some rambling stream of consciousness stuff
for now. So, please do not expect it to be cogent nor all ‘cleaned up’
in a cohesive way, OK? Thanks.

The ‘why?’ question is enormous! To do it full justice, I would have
to share many years of my life with you which is clearly impractical.
So…in lieu of doing so…here goes. While in no way being an expert, I
have studied many of the ancient philosophers, both east and west. I
have studied ‘mind’ as it is apprehended in Tibetan Buddhism. I have
read and studied to some extent many who, for lack of a better word,
can be called theosophists. While some of the latter still appears to
be woo to me, much does not. As a kid, I explored a few theologies,
differing forms of Christianity…some Judaism, psychology, a bit of
philosophy and, not finding good ‘answers’ to my own questions
readily, I continued to pursue such topics well into middle and late
life. I have spent countless hours in university medical libraries
studying. I have been treated by some of the worlds best
acupuncturists and homeopaths…as well as Tibetan physicians. I have
studied with HHDL, other leaders of the yellow hat school. As stated
elsewhere, I have dabbled with feedback mechanisms, also, you
mentioned some entheogens, which I have studied in detail. I have
studied Acupuncture, Tibetan Medicine, Chinese Medicine, a little
homeopathy, read about emanationism, read Christian Science, studied
the maths of the ancients and of today including non-Euclidian
geometry. Read some of the Vedas. I have met many Yogis, attended
Ananda events, …I have meditated for about 40 years now, sometimes
over 3-4 hours per day. I like Plotinus. I have access to the ancient
Academy as well as some of the mystery schools. I have dabbled with
string theory, read at least one of Albert Einstein’s books from cover
to cover around 1960, used to read Scientific American all the time,
on occasion read Science online. Scan what scientific articles I come
by…etc.

No, my intent is not to overwhelm you with information, more to
attempt to present a bit of a holographic view of some of the
influences upon how my thinking has progressed.  After taking
Gautama’s adage of not accepting anything on faith because someone
said so, but exploring on one’s own until fully satisfied of the truth
of anything…. deeply to heart, I use all three of William James’
suggested methods to study mind rather than just two.

Also, when you talk about materiality, using science itself to examine
material the results one finds are mostly space and energy…nothing
physical at all…just things that to us appear to be stable, real and
stuff we can feel (this even though, due to the nature of atomic
structures and associated electromagnetism, we never do touch
anything). So, epistemologically, even using analysis and empiricism
as well as contemplation, I find that we are living in a world of
appearances. Here I go with some of the greatest philosophers of all
time…mostly Hindu and Buddhist. I do not find that what I see and
believe I see/feel/touch/taste/hear etc. are as they commonly appear.
Yes, I do know the more cynical comebacks to such a view. Forging
ahead, I do adapt to the world around me as well as possible, treating
appearances as being as real as need be to get by in life. Truth be
told, I still forget the above now and then, even though it is at the
core of my ontological views too.

Normally I wouldn’t go into such a self-disclosing mode nor be so
unorganized. Sorry…but, perhaps it will give you a small flavor of the
type of consciousness you are dealing with…hope so anyway.


On Sep 5, 4:10 pm, sjewins <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 5, 11:52 am, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "Are you aware of Dr. Michael Persinger's experiments wherein he
> > subjects the brain to focused electro-magnetic force and creates
> > "spiritual" sensations in the subject? " - SE
>
> > Yes.
>
> And yet you still feel there is a non-material aspect to
> consciousness? Why is that?
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