All again true. In Orn's retrospective futurology there would at least be lots of work for we shovellers!
On 8 Sep, 18:10, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > "Most effects are a combination of indirect effects and > knowing all the causes is a task beyond the capabilities of all the > supercomputers we will EVER have" - Pat > > RE: Computers > > If there had been a computer in 1872, it would have predicted that by > now there would be so many horse-drawn vehicles that the entire > surface of the Earth would be 10 feet deep in horse manure. (Karl > Kapp) > > Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tonnes. (Popular > Mechanics - 1949) > > On Sep 8, 4:59 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On 8 Sep, 12:28, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I am not sure there is "false" consciousness, but that we deem is so, > > > and this may be relative. The Dennett video struck me because I > > > thought it illustrated nicely the idea of viewpoint. I could feel > > > myself change, or had a change in feeling once I "saw" what he was > > > leading me to see. At first, I could not see it, then I could. And > > > once I could, my viewpoint changed. This doesn't mean that my > > > previous viewpoint was false and my new viewpoint true. It only means > > > that my viewpoint has changed. Unless it means something to me to > > > give it this value. And then I do. > > > > It struck me that we go through life like this, missing the complete > > > picture (which to Pat, might be God's Will, or, the big picture of > > > possibility) and only seeing, feeling, thinking, believing what our > > > current viewpoint allows. > > > Yup, I'll confirm that. Although there ARE techniques for glimpsing > > ahead. Edward De Bono's 'Water Logic' being one. The concept is to > > follow the flow of actions. I.e., one action will lead to another, > > which leads to another and so on. If we take the time to see where > > our actions will lead us, we catch a wider view of the future. > > However, this doesn't (and can't) take into consideration unknown, > > outside influences, which end up dictating A LOT of what happens. > > > >It is a change in view that allows us to > > > see more, and not more coming into being, Nothing changes but our > > > viewpoint, in the Dennett example, it only included a visual > > > perception, but in life may include conceptual, perceptual, emotional, > > > rational and many more changes. But consciousness is consciousness, > > > there is only brahman. > > > > Someone in another group suggested there is pure consciousness > > > (knowing of everything and everywhen or cosmic consciousness) or > > > consciousness in context - consciousness that is filtered through our > > > experience (which is shaped by your viewpoint) I suppose, the > > > integration of these might be the non dual perspective. > > > Sounds reasonable. Thre trick there is tapping into the big > > picture. For example, right now, there are children in Darfur that > > are starving or worse. Most people think this has no direct effect on > > them. They may well be right, but the indirect effects could be > > enormous. For example, malaria isn't the mosquito's fault, after all, > > IT'S been infected by a parasite and is only acting (unknowingly) as a > > vector. Most effects are a combination of indirect effects and > > knowing all the causes is a task beyond the capabilities of all the > > supercomputers we will EVER have. > > > >http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_on_dangerous_memes.html Here is > > > another interesting Dennett video, where he leads us through his > > > thinking on the concept of memes. How does our environment or our > > > experience effect our consciousness. The answer is, of course, that > > > it influences us in many subtle and profound ways - until it doesn't. > > > And it doesn't when we gain the understanding that it doesn't need to, > > > that our viewpoint need not depend on the content of our experience, > > > in fact, it is the other way around, our experience is the > > > manifestation of our consciousness through viewpoint. When we can > > > operate from this realization, our viewpoint and experience become one > > > creative dynamic, with awakened imagination providing all the > > > necessary energy. > > > The proof of that can be found walking down the street. Give a > > tight-lipped smile to someone and they will, most likely, return in > > kind; give an open smile and they will, most likely, return in kind. > > And one can smile even when in pain that the 'other' couldn't possibly > > know about. > > > > On Sep 8, 2:10 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Perhaps it's not false consciousness at all but simply irrational > > > > reasoning, discretion gone wild or living an indoctrinated lie. > > > > > On Sep 7, 10:56 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > I suppose most of our experience of the why continuum has been > > > > > disappointment - largely because it's been about manufacturing consent > > > > > along Orn's lines - the human sciences have certainly played their > > > > > part in this. There has been some focus on what gets 'hard-wired' in > > > > > the brain, leading to the notion that religion is and that this > > > > > togetherness is an evolutionary advantage. I tend to like notions of > > > > > extra-human consciousness because I would prefer something better to > > > > > tune into. I much prefer a world in which, told at the door of a New > > > > > York restaurant in the 1960s that there was no admittance to women > > > > > wearing trousers, Gillian Anscombe (a catholic philosopher with a > > > > > clutch of kids) promptly removed hers, to a world of worthies who > > > > > prosecute women for wearing them. > > > > > 'Hard-wiring' is clearly something for biology to be looking at, but > > > > > how has it come to Dawkin's black box to be ignored as irrational - > > > > > itself an irrational, unexplored base for 'rational science'? > > > > > Introspection has led me to know there is lots of hard-wiring in me I > > > > > would rather do without, except in time-constrained moments of fight- > > > > > flight and maybe some forms of enjoyment. I am still hard-wired > > > > > against being attracted to black women (no doubt a great relief to > > > > > them) and inclined to be attracted to white and Asian women and not > > > > > men of any shade. I seem, these days, to have become hard-wired > > > > > against advertising, cosmetics and commodity-fetishism - which are > > > > > linked to disgust in me (such a link is proposed as a learning > > > > > mechanism for hard-wiring). There is much 'false-consciousness' I > > > > > would like to sweep away in order to have better environmental effects > > > > > on what I can be (though we don't want a bunch of PC Nazis in charge > > > > > of this). We could have a more virtuous circle of 'consciousness'. I > > > > > was brought up in a false consciousness of hating Germans and Japanese > > > > > and considerable other racism. I suspect it's Muslims these days. If > > > > > we end up not being able to define consciousness I guess we get this > > > > > about right - there are possibilities and probabilities. So how can I > > > > > be so sure about false consciousness? > > > > > > On 7 Sep, 15:51, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > On 7 Sep, 15:12, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Tubulins are targets for anticancer drugs like Taxol and the > > > > > > > "Vinca > > > > > > > alkaloid" drugs such as vinblastine and vincristine. The anti-gout > > > > > > > agent colchicine binds to tubulin and inhibits microtubule > > > > > > > formation, > > > > > > > arresting neutrophil motility and decreasing inflammation. The > > > > > > > anti- > > > > > > > fungal drug Griseofulvin targets mictotubule formation and has > > > > > > > applications in cancer treatment. Visions of myself and Pat in > > > > > > > bathchairs at the convalescent home for mad techno-speculants > > > > > > > needing > > > > > > > to finalise string theory to cure our gout! I should think I > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > concede my Kaliber Yawn theory that string theories are an > > > > > > > illusion > > > > > > > created by a lack of alcohol in such circumstances. > > > > > > > LOL!! Could well be. The last time I had a pint of ale, I was > > > > > > sick as a dog. I just can't seem to tolerate alcohol anymore. I > > > > > > suppose God is preparing me for a long dry spell. ;-) > > > > > > > > Arguments on life and consciousness seem to imply 'why' questions > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > me - perhaps necessitate them. Memory sort of links to a world of > > > > > > > logical necessity (a view from Leibniz). I don't think this big > > > > > > > - I'm > > > > > > > more concerned we get on with better decision-making that is a > > > > > > > contribution to an open society - without this we are cast into > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > kind of 'killing competition' even if we just leave it to > > > > > > > evolution to > > > > > > > wipe us out. > > > > > > > As I said, the fact that we exist in a continuum implies that the > > > > > > system is teleological. Thus the need for our 'whys' to be > > > > > > answered. > > > > > > I fear, though, that most of the answers will elude us while we're > > > > > > incarnate. > > > > > > > > On 7 Sep, 11:01, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 4 Sep, 22:02, sjewins <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Also, as current as views like Simon’s are, “The product of > > > > > > > > > > the bio- > > > > > > > > > > electric, electro-chemical energy in the brain. Like a > > > > > > > > > > burning candle > > > > > > > > > > produces heat, the brain produces consciousness.” - Simon > > > > > > > > > > > …saying that consciousness is bio-electrical and > > > > > > > > > > electro-chemical > > > > > > > > > > energy, using an analogy as he did about a candle, is like > > > > > > > > > > saying that > > > > > > > > > > consciousness is the product of those trillions of cells > > > > > > > > > > that Dennett > > > > > > > > > > suggests is a ‘bag of tricks’! > > > > > > > > > > Well, it is by those methods that the brain functions. How > > > > > > > > > else could > > > > > > > > > consciousness arise if not from the > > ... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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