“…Reality does not depend on human recognition of it in ANY way, rather, human recognition of anything is dependent upon the conformation of the underlying reality.” – Pat
Yes, this is one philosophical stance Pat..and I would guess it is the most common one too. And, when you say “…the entire history of the Earth could well have just 'popped into' existence by the creation of the first man….”, in a sense it did…all of it from the perception of time, history, named ‘things’, oil, things to be afraid of (dinosaurs) etc. All of this is conceptual and not things that “…existed in their own time without human perception OF them…”. In a way, I used to think that appearances were based on energy and movement, yet, even these notions require a mind to think them. So, yes, in another way we are all in a dream. And, of course, the Einsteinian notion of relativity enters when one addresses scope and size. How small do we see/know? How large? And, is not size itself a relative concept found in mind only? Oh, you also mentioned something about a fact being linked to the One. Again, a rather strange notion in my view. I can accept that ‘facts’ are things we think and they are things that are not permanent. And I can accept that the One is permanent and unchanging and eternal, yet does not involve facts…both ‘are’ yet the former is relative/ subjective and the latter is absolute/objective. And, other than the above apparent two things, in any ultimate sense there is no ‘OTHER’ as I’m sure you will agree. Even your term ‘Big Bang’ is conceptual, named and a projection of your thinking…having nothing at all to do with reality as it is. On Sep 16, 4:46 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > On 16 Sep, 08:01, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > “Clearly that is your individual perception….” – SD > > > True, and in fact I remain amazed. And, rather than answer your > > question directly, I will start at the beginning and address your > > original statement. ("...Individual perception does not change > > fact..." – SD) > > > I could ask you a question about it like, what is a ‘fact’? Yet, here > > I will posit that any ‘fact’ that you present is based on your > > individual perception. Yes, even the one about the sun. Without the > > human perception of light, heat, spheres, fire, color, the cosmos > > etc., in other words what a sun is as well as how it appears to arise, > > cross the heavens and then hide beneath the earth, or, the concept of > > the earth rotating allowing the above appearances to occur, there > > would be no fact at all. Or, perhaps you would/could produce a fully > > objective being who could confirm one of the stories about light? Or > > better yet some sort of machine to measure such things, of course said > > machine could not be made by a human being nor be interpreted/read by > > a human being. > > > And, yes, I know about some of the ‘rebuttals’ such as “If you don’t > > believe in the external world, why don’t you walk through walls?” or > > other such strange forms of ‘logic’. > > > So, your assumption that anything is a ‘fact’ separate from human > > thought is the flaw…so any question beyond that such as your last one > > is based on an error. > > If a fact is linked to human (or, indeed, any) acknowledgement > (outside of the One), would mean that the entire history of the Earth > could well have just 'popped into' existence by the creation of the > first man. Somehow, I rather think that dinosaurs and the like that, > are now, little more than oil slicks underground, existed in their own > time without human perception OF them. Nor did our discovery of their > oil slicks and/or bones and fossils, place them into history. To > think that human perception of data is what makes data 'real' (rather > than acknowledged) is absurd. But, of course, that's 'just my > opinion'. I blame German philosophers for most of that kind of > thinking and, to me, it's the height of human arrogance to think that > our conception/perception of anything is a required function of any > OTHER thing's existence. It reduces the Big Bang to the moment that > the first human 'discovered' the background radiation FROM it, rather > than the timing of the actual event. I'm afraid I'm in Slip's camp on > this. Reality does not depend on human recognition of it in ANY way, > rather, human recognition of anything is dependent upon the > conformation of the underlying reality. > > > > > On Sep 15, 6:21 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Clearly that is your individual perception. > > > > Perhaps you can demonstrate how a "fact" is changed by individual > > > perception/subjectivity. > > > > On Sep 15, 8:12 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > "...Individual perception does not change fact..." - SD > > > > > I find this an amazing declaration Slip! > > > > > On Sep 15, 3:15 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Haha! Yes Fran, but it is understood that the sun rises up from the > > > > > horizon from the human visual perspective, that is why we call it > > > > > "sunrise" and later in the day "sunset". > > > > > Secondly this is not debating expressions of sunrise or earth rotation > > > > > but about fact being distorted by subjectivity. > > > > > I can easily make my point using an example other than sunrise. > > > > > Individual perception does not change fact. Whatever fact you prefer > > > > > to use is your choice. > > > > > > On Sep 15, 2:32 pm, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > On 15 Sep., 21:11, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > The FACT is, Lee, that the sun rises. That IS the fact. > > > > > > > Ah, but is it, Slip? The fact is also that the sun does,not rise but > > > > > > rather that the earth turns. At least since Copernicus. > > > > > > > Francis- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
