When it comes to Afghanistan and OBL, we have to remember that the US recruited, trained, armed and financed OBL. Having read “Charlie Wilson’s War”, I will watch Tom Hank’s new contribution playing his character. This is a common theme, throw resources at one side of a conflict to support current appetites and interests and then, when no longer needed, throw ‘em under the bus. A few other examples that come to mind are Saddam Hussein, Noriega, the entire country of Chili along with all of South America, Iran, removing democratically elected leaders like Aristide and messing with Haiti’s politics since it was created. The list is endless. My guess is that as nice as Roosevelt’s repetition of the East African proverb, “Speak softly and carry a big stick, you will go far.”, sounds, it only points towards a deeper attitude. At one point Roosevelt had written privately that if “any South American country misbehaves” it should be “spanked.” A year later, Roosevelt wrote,
“Just at the moment I am so angry with that infernal little Cuban republic that I would like to wipe its people off the face of the earth. All that we wanted from them was that they would behave themselves and be prosperous and happy so that we would not have to interfere.” Overall, it seems apparent that powerful governments meddle and extend their influence everywhere they can. Why? Because they can. Never has an agreement stood in the way of any appetite. Publically disseminated propaganda is just that. Don’t get me started on the topic of the Indians of the Americas. Back to the current topic. The very notion of setting up “an alternative legitimate government…” itself speaks volumes about the feeling of entitlement and the principle of might makes right. Few cotton to the principle of universality, a much more commonly voiced theme known by Christianity and other theologies. As to the Powell doctrine and Afghanistan, it was already broken in the sense that the people there had already developed their own way of governing and economy. And Bush merely implemented the goal of his Father’s advisors in Iraq after a short interruption by non-neo-cons. Their version of Mein Kampf, “The Project for a New American Century” was public and has been known all along. And Fran, as to bringing Afghanistan ‘to a successful conclusion’, I can only wonder if an analogy is Iran and the Shaw. When you say that Karsai “has proven to be a major disappointment”, could this not have been said about any puppet government the US has instituted worldwide? The Taliban (“religious students”) were doing well on their own in that country prior to US intervention. And, yes, when any government meddles in the affairs of another country, a predictable result is an increase in the number of fanatical freedom fighters. And, when you say that if the US bails out, ‘the Taliban will be back.’ Uh, are they not already there? Are they not in control of the country already? Were they not able to repel the USSR? And, I seriously doubt that if the US tries to buy them like has been done in Iraq, any associated comradeship will be based on nothing but greed and worth nothing. As to the Taliban and nukes, I guess I have missed this occurrence. Of course, for years there were simple instructions on the web as to how to produce nukes as well as books in libraries all over the world. It is all too easy to acquire the materials to make such a thing. That genie (Djinn) has long been out of the bottle. I have met the enemy and it is us. A fine mess indeed! On Oct 8, 4:51 am, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > How did the Western Allies manage to f*** up so badly in Afghanistan? > We can all remember the immediate aftermath of 9/11; clear links > between Al Kaida and the Taliban, Bin Ladin enjoying succour and > support in Afghanistan, the Luddite religious terror of the Taliban, > judicial murder of "unchaste" women, the vandalism of the statues at > Banyam, etc. Operation Enduring Freedom had the basic backing of the > UN Security Council and the UN-mandated NATO organised ISAF has been > an integral part of the western operations in Afghanistan since the > beginning of 2002. > > Eight years later, Afghanistan has turned into a colossal SNAFU. To > catalogue all that went wrong would take take a very large book. There > are, though, a couple of major factors which can briefly be mentioned. > > The initial goal was - at least publicly - to get rid of the Taliban, > set up an alternative legitimate government and get out. But, on the > way, the allies fell foul of the basic premise of the Powell doctrine > - they broke it and now they own it. It's still broken and deadly > dangerous as a result. And they can't sell it because nobody they can > trust wants to buy it. > > A major contributor to the problem was Bush's crazy war in Iraq. It > served to divert attention from Afghanistan at a time when that > attention was badly needed. It also served to divert financial > resources, manpower, logistical resources etc. from Afghanistan at a > time, when, had they been committed, the thing just might have been > brought to a successful conclusion. It also served to politicize the > whole presence of US-led Western forces in the region and provided > Islamicist propaganda arguments with legitimation in the eyes of many > angry young men in the area. By making a limited action to get rid of > a mad-dog regime in one country part of a much larger regional > ideological power conflict, it subordinated limited, achievable goals > within Afghanistan to hopelessly complex geo-political problems - in > particularly (but not only) with relation to Pakistan. > Karsai has proven to be a major disappointment, turning out to be just > another Pashtun warlord, serving his own constituency and personal > power base. But the West should have known this beforehand and > factored it in. Many of the other warlords continue to consolidate > their positions by alternately blackmailing and cooperating with the > allies. The stupidity of the west and the cupidity of the Afghan > elites in power have been a powerful recruiting sergeant for the > Taliban in the past couple of years. And the border region between > Afghanistan and Pakistan has become a vacuum where the Taliban can > flourish almost completely unopposed, because everyone is afraid to do > ANYTHING in Pakistan for fear of the consequences. > > Then there's the whole opium thing. If the Western Allies (above all > the US) had given up their fully useless, propagandistic "War on > Drugs" position, decriminalised the opium production and bought the > whole Afghan harvest for a couple of years running at (black-)market > prices, they could have cut off the Taliban financial base, got the > Afghan peasantry/people enthusiastically behind them, supplied the > entire world demand for medical opiates and would still have finished > up spending less money than they have on growing military operations > in the past couple of years. Then, hell, they could even have burned > the surplus, if they couldn't find any better use for it. > > I don't envy Obama on this one, because there is no good solution now. > Bush dropped him a large bag of fragrant s**t, right in his lap. If > the West follows the Soviet example and just bails out, the Taliban > will be back, possibly not just in Kabul but in large parts of > Pakistan - maybe even in Islamabad. With nukes. A wonderful scenario, > in which an Ahmadinejad with a nuclear bomb will suddenly be seen as a > moderate. > > I have a picture of Obama and Bush standing togther like Laurel and > Hardy, with BO saying, "That's ANOTHER fine mess you've gotten us > into!" > > Francis > > On 7 Okt., 15:11, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > The latest UK retired general is saying he asked for substantial troop > > increases and was denied by Brown. Our basic problem in all this is > > that we aren't in any kind of communication with Al Q and what they > > think they are fighting for. I don't know whether any of this stuff > > is worth fighting over - history would indicate not much ever is and > > that our working knowledge is pathetic. There were many valid > > protests that could have stopped WW1 and 2, yet not much understanding > > even now about how such culturally advanced societies like Germany, > > France , Britain, Japan, Russia and the US fell into such a mess. > > The essential question seems to be why we are forever stuck in the > > 'war model' when we can clearly change to live in plenty without war. > > This question raises practical issues about living in peace when there > > are those who might use such a situation merely to establish better > > footings for war in their own domains, and a solution is clearly > > needed to prevent this. Our current solution is the 'American > > Umbrella'. Even I am reluctant to dismantle this without proper > > agreements actually put in practice - we should remember here that > > this umbrella could be collapsed by collapsing the dollar and Euro and > > is already screwed by the expansion of heavy manufacturing and > > technology secrets. Bush threatened to bomb (presumably nuke) > > Pakistan back to the stone age and there will already be some kind of > > vile plan for a new kind of mad first strike. I suspect our debates > > are those of innocents. > > > On 7 Oct, 03:39, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Looks like I may have been too hard on Gen. McChrystal. Our > > > in-the-tank MSM didn't give me the whole story. Thank God for the WSJ > > > opinion pages. > > > >http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405297020448830457442896122227... > > > > dj > > > > On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 4:49 PM, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Yes, Obama's war is winding down. I wish he had the guts to cut bait > > > > or fish but it seems the strategy is to remain there putting our > > > > soldiers lives at risk fighting a half-ass war with one arm tied > > > > around our back. The unfortunate leaks have only exacerbated the > > > > problem. Gen. McChrystal may very well have sacrificed his career > > > > going public with this disaster but I understand why he did it. I > > > > wish he'd just quit; talking sets a bad precedent. We don't need our > > > > military bickering with our elected officials. Mr. President, in > > > > Afghanistan it is time to shit or get off the pot. All this > > > > indecision is making us look weaker and weaker. > > > > > dj > > > > > On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 6:07 AM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> the louder the erudite tunes from the latest best and > > > >> brightest -- whistling past graveyards, to be filled by people far > > > >> away. Orn. > > > > >> That's about it I'm afraid. The only way any of this might make sense > > > >> is through dreadful assumptions about someone's human nature. A > > > >> brilliant turn of phrase Orn. > > > > >> On 6 Oct, 09:48, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >>> I hesitate to repeat my views again about such things Neil. So, here > > > >>> are some words from someone else. > > > >>> Orn. > > > >>> =========== > > > >>> Starting Another Year of War in Afghanistan > > > > >>> October, 02 2009By Solomon, Norman > > > > >>> October 2009 has begun with the New York Times reporting that "the > > > >>> president, vice president and an array of cabinet secretaries, > > > >>> intelligence chiefs, generals, diplomats and advisers gathered in a > > > >>> windowless basement room of the White House for three hours on > > > >>> Wednesday to chart a new course in Afghanistan." > > > > >>> As this month begins the ninth year of the U.S. war effort in > > > >>> Afghanistan, "windowless" seems to be an apt metaphor. The structure > > > >>> of thought and the range of options being debated in Washington's high > > > >>> places are notably insular. The "new course" will be a permutation of > > > >>> the present course. > > > > >>> While certainty is lacking, steely resolve is evident. An unspoken > > > >>> mantra remains in effect: When in doubt, keep killing. The knotty > > > >>> question is: Exactly who and how? > > > > >>> News accounts are filled with stories about options that mix > > > >>> "counterinsurgency" with "counterterrorism." The thicker the jargon in > > > >>> Washington, the louder the erudite tunes from the latest best and > > > >>> brightest -- whistling past graveyards, to be filled by people far > > > >>> away. > > > > >>> In the White House, there's no indication of a pane that's facing the > > > >>> pain in Afghanistan, one of the poorest countries in the world, where > > > >>> the U.S. government continues to bring gifts: a dollar's worth of > > > >>> warfare for a dime's worth of everything else… > > > > >>> For the rest of the story, > > > >>> see:http://www.zcommunications.org/zspace/commentaries/4000 > > > > >>> Again, one small vignette about a few people, humanity and the lack > > > >>> thereof as well as what feeds insurgency. The USSR had it right… > > > >>> retreat. > > > > >>> On Oct 6, 12:44 am, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >>> > "Truth..."http://video.google.com/videosearch?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1ACGWCENUS3... > > > > >>> > All clear now? ;-) > > > > >>> > On Oct 5, 5:29 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >>> > > Perhaps the recession is a depression after all. It seems Chris > > > >>> > > was > > > >>> > > approached to lend his ear in traditional manner so we could have > > > >>> > > a > > > >>> > > basis for a just war (the second war of another Jenkins' Ear) and > > > >>> > > refused on the moral grounds that he was not offered enough money > > > >>> > > and > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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