Our governments and press actually hide wars from us over here. We had a big war in Indonesia for a couple of decades that drew very little attention, no doubt because it was us doing most of the killing (over 30,000). The 'War of Disconsolate Sheep' was reported by one BBC guy mostly. This war was prefaced by US refusal to supply aircraft parts to Argentina and some dodgy intelligence-led disruption of their equipment buying. I have seen no credible footage from Iraq or Afghanistan of what we really did and are doing. The coverage of Vietnam in the UK was similar to that in the US - this was the last of the real reporting. I agree entirely with Molly on the need for real protest (people were killed by cops). The US Embassy in Grosvenor Square was under regular siege here. Footage of these events was shown to me in 'how not to do public order policing' sessions, all forgotten in the Miners' Strike. Blair Peach, a New Zealander, died in London. Lee is probably a bit too young to remember. The right-wing view now is that protests stopped the needed victories. Student protest has gone, despite there being many more of them. These days they are supposed to learn how to become bureaucrats in the armies of oppression, not try to change them. We teach selfishness. Orn's List is easily agreed by most in here I suspect, but it is hidden in News and Double Speaks (not his). I believe key ideologies-in-use are involved, not least the notion that the West (which includes Japan and maybe China) must stay on top or we will find ourselves out-gunned - this means we must win economically to have the resources for R & D to stay ahead (economics and diplomacy as 'war by other means') and in turn that 'protest' is an internal danger of fools who don't understand the 'big picture' and lead us like lambs to the slaughter. This is a very powerful ideology and we hear bits of it across threads in here. I am by no means dismissive of it myself. Sino-Soviet Paradises were nothing of the kind. The question is whether there is a more honest way to genuine democracies of public scrutiny. It is only the 'burnt-out cop' in me that rails a bit against Molly's words, perhaps because they are right in-themselves, but the problem is one of getting wider reflection and dialogue (which I know she supports). Any criticism here is as much self-projection of fears of my own complexity and wishes I could do 'Dirty Harry by peaceful means', as of the ideas. Chris has jumped in often enough with the basic statement that 'protest industries' have their own interests and these are often about niche marketing. I fear a recreation of The Guardians amongst language only a few can understand, a mere place of conscience amongst business as usual. In grim form this is the Church of England. History in England is such that we are learning today that we nuked a fair bit of South Australia in the 1950s. The facts of British history are gruesome. Yet no politician dares say this, and indeed they all roll out the need to be proud to be British, suggesting the ideologies can be relied on to run deep and in crushing majority. We need to be able to demand a New Deal and to engage in practical projects that are not just initiatives. We need something beyond the literacy we are all rather good at, I suspect a 'new language'.
On 17 Dec, 17:52, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > Cheers to you, my friend. > > On Dec 17, 12:19 pm, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Cheers Moll's. > > > On 17 Dec, 16:57, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Here is a good read: > > > >http://www.answers.com/topic/vietnam-antiwar-movement > > > > On Dec 17, 11:37 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > In fact did any protests stop US involment in the Vietnam war? > > > > > On 17 Dec, 16:12, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > civil rights for the African Americans in the US, or migrant workers, > > > > > or women, did not happen over night. One protest did not stop US > > > > > involvement in the Viet Nam war. Each movement took years, many > > > > > marches, many people, many organizations. Getting PR for it all has > > > > > always been a problem, and something each organization must deal with > > > > > to be effective. > > > > > > On Dec 17, 4:24 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Sorry Molly I have to disagree with you here. Did you see any news > > > > > > covargae of Copenhagan yesterday? Specifily the demonstrators, > > > > > > talking about how they don't want big corperations making money from > > > > > > 'Green Issues' and how it should be all of us banding together to > > > > > > make > > > > > > real changes at grass roots level. > > > > > > > Very interseting and something that I can certianly get with. How > > > > > > much notice was taken of these people? Our news focused more on the > > > > > > police/protester clash. These people made a lot of noise, now lets > > > > > > wait and see what effect on the those with the actual power to make > > > > > > changes it has, if any. > > > > > > > The only political power that the avarage man in the street has ever > > > > > > had is one of revolution. > > > > > > > On 15 Dec, 18:00, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > I think we are only politically impotent when we do not involve > > > > > > > ourselves in politics in a way direct enough to allow our > > > > > > > influence on > > > > > > > the political matters that effect our lives. We are all presented > > > > > > > with myriad opportunities to become directly involved with grass > > > > > > > roots > > > > > > > politics, and from there, our sphere of influence expands in > > > > > > > direct > > > > > > > relationship to our unifiying efforts. Staying in our ivory > > > > > > > towers > > > > > > > complaining about what we think is wrong in the world leads to > > > > > > > impotence. Participation leads to empowerment. A reality check > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > our expectations may be in order. > > > > > > > > On Dec 14, 5:43 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I think those of us that care will try Neil, and the othyers > > > > > > > > will just > > > > > > > > carry on as normal. How do you make somebody care? I guess you > > > > > > > > can't. > > > > > > > > > On 11 Dec, 22:57, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > That seems to be the case Lee. I don't know how we beat it, > > > > > > > > > just that > > > > > > > > > we should try. Yet trying hurts because they are so smarmy. > > > > > > > > > > On 11 Dec, 14:29, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Good question man. > > > > > > > > > > > Voter apathy? Personaly I feel this impotentance myself. I > > > > > > > > > > can feel > > > > > > > > > > the rage building every time I see one of the smarmy little > > > > > > > > > > sods on > > > > > > > > > > TV, yep I mean politicians. > > > > > > > > > > > What angers me the most is the aviodance of answering the > > > > > > > > > > question put > > > > > > > > > > to you. Instead they take the question as an oppertunity > > > > > > > > > > to slag off > > > > > > > > > > the opposition(okay I can expect a certian amount of this > > > > > > > > > > with a > > > > > > > > > > general election due) or answer a question they really wish > > > > > > > > > > to answer, > > > > > > > > > > but not the one asked. > > > > > > > > > > > Why do I feel impotent? Because I know no matter which way > > > > > > > > > > I vote, > > > > > > > > > > due to the ammount of people that just wont bother, and the > > > > > > > > > > ammount of > > > > > > > > > > people that will vote not according to their conciounse, > > > > > > > > > > but in line > > > > > > > > > > with what the media portrays, well I fear we'll have no > > > > > > > > > > more than a > > > > > > > > > > repeat of what has been going on for as long as I can > > > > > > > > > > remember. > > > > > > > > > > > People get fed up with fed up with the sleaze of present > > > > > > > > > > goverment as > > > > > > > > > > portayed in the media, and just vote the opposition in, no > > > > > > > > > > matter who > > > > > > > > > > that opposition is. Then perhaps 8, or 10, or 12 years > > > > > > > > > > later people > > > > > > > > > > get pissed off with the sleaze of goverement and vote the > > > > > > > > > > opposition > > > > > > > > > > in. Round and round we go again and again. > > > > > > > > > > > On 11 Dec, 13:48, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Most people I've known anywhere in the world have had > > > > > > > > > > > little time for > > > > > > > > > > > politics. The basic reason given is that politicians > > > > > > > > > > > feather their > > > > > > > > > > > own nests. Fear and ingroup hatreds often lead to tribal > > > > > > > > > > > or sectarian > > > > > > > > > > > voting. Perhaps, underneath this, is that many just want > > > > > > > > > > > to get on > > > > > > > > > > > with their own lives - something most people see as > > > > > > > > > > > harmless. Most > > > > > > > > > > > people also feel their efforts would be useless a kind of > > > > > > > > > > > impotence > > > > > > > > > > > seems involved. I have never found it possible to vote > > > > > > > > > > > for changes I > > > > > > > > > > > really want, though I usually turn out at the ballot. > > > > > > > > > > > Whips were > > > > > > > > > > > originally slaves used to whip in recalcitrant citizens - > > > > > > > > > > > a double > > > > > > > > > > > shame of not carrying out civic duties and the mark of > > > > > > > > > > > the slave's > > > > > > > > > > > lash was involved. Before the Iraq war I protested on > > > > > > > > > > > the streets, > > > > > > > > > > > but could not find anyone to vote for who would > > > > > > > > > > > definitely have kept > > > > > > > > > > > us out of the war, though the Liberals, who I did vote > > > > > > > > > > > for, remained > > > > > > > > > > > against it in opposition. > > > > > > > > > > > Our own MP should be deselected on the basis of his lack > > > > > > > > > > > of help and > > > > > > > > > > > nastiness over neighbour problems that were very severe, > > > > > > > > > > > but in fact > > > > > > > > > > > it's difficult to get heard anywhere. > > > > > > > > > > > If we can believe global warming and related issues (to > > > > > > > > > > > some extent we > > > > > > > > > > > still cannot), the planet could only host 1.5 billion > > > > > > > > > > > US-style > > > > > > > > > > > consumers or 15 billion Rwandan ones. War is still > > > > > > > > > > > everywhere > > > > > > > > > > > (obviously subject to limits). Criminality, bent > > > > > > > > > > > professions and > > > > > > > > > > > dismal business practices all lead to a lack of personal > > > > > > > > > > > security > > > > > > > > > > > unless one conforms by exploiting one's intelligence or > > > > > > > > > > > 'birth- > > > > > > > > > > > rights'. The press remains largely self-interested and > > > > > > > > > > > poodle. > > > > > > > > > > > Education is increasingly about being successful gaining > > > > > > > > > > > qualifications for business as usual. Even to protest > > > > > > > > > > > can be simply > > > > > > > > > > > to join another set of businesses doing little other than > > > > > > > > > > > support lead > > > > > > > > > > > protesters in that 'success' or to assuage conscience. > > > > > > > > > > > My guess is > > > > > > > > > > > that war escalation is not far away. > > > > > > > > > > > Over the years, I've read most of the material on social > > > > > > > > > > > change, > > > > > > > > > > > pathologies in capitalism and the Sino-Soviet > > > > > > > > > > > experiments, the great > > > > > > > > > > > myths of democratic, liberal capitalism and a whole wad > > > > > > > > > > > of quasi- > > > > > > > > > > > philosophical organisation theories and social psychology > > > > > > > > > > > - all of > > > > > > > > > > > which seem doomed to failure as one reads them - they > > > > > > > > > > > rest on an > > > > > > > > > > > impossible dream of an educated, rational 'voting force' > > > > > > > > > > > that can put > > > > > > > > > > > its own interests aside under some form of a 'cloak of > > > > > > > > > > > objectivity' (a > > > > > > > > > > > term from Rawls). Many stress 'leadership', yet we know > > > > > > > > > > > power tends > > > > > > > > > > > to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I > > > > > > > > > > > have been filled > > > > > > > > > > > with Bildung from literature, myth and science, yet feel > > > > > > > > > > > this is > > > > > > > > > > > merely a burden in a moral climate that (unlike the > > > > > > > > > > > planet) has > > > > > > > > > > > remained frozen - not least because the Bildung itself is > > > > > > > > > > > a path to > > > > > > > > > > > 'success' as an erudite critic. It's almost like market > > > > > > > > > > > segmentation, > > > > > > > > > > > a matter of finding that section of the market in which > > > > > > > > > > > one's views > > > > > > > > > > > are saleable. > > > > > > > > > > > I want a situation in which politics and government are > > > > > > > > > > > largely > > > > > > > > > > > unnecessary, yet I also want responsible population > > > > > > > > > > > control and lives > > > > > > > > > > > that are more about being than having, protection from > > > > > > > > > > > bandits and > > > > > > > > > > > anti-social scum, genuine representation for my interests > > > > > > > > > > > and those of > > > > > > > > > > > others on an individual basis so that big power, wealth > > > > > > > > > > > and so on are > > > > > > > > > > > on an equal footing - clearly, if I'm honest, I'm still > > > > > > > > > > > interested in > > > > > > > > > > > control. > > > > > > > > > > > The planet probably sits back knowing (Lovelock) it can > > > > > > > > > > > survive > > > > > > > > > > > humanity and I can probably 'survive to death' in > > > > > > > > > > > reasonable comfort > > > > > > > > > > > until it's all over (fatalism). What's on offer is > > > > > > > > > > > hardly a hill of > > > > > > > > > > > beans. > > > > > > > > > > > My own take on this situation is that the control and > > > > > > > > > > > impotence are > > > > > > > > > > > set in evolution, much in the way a wolf pack organises. > > > > > > > > > > > What we have > > > > > > > > > > > is forced on us to maintain a libidinal economy in which > > > > > > > > > > > a few exploit > > > > > > > > > > > the excess. There is merely a nagging glimmer of what > > > > > > > > > > > else might be. > > > > > > > > > > > Our politicians are mostly just cunning idiots and our > > > > > > > > > > > media much the > > > > > > > > > > > same. There is little we can do, unless we can work out > > > > > > > > > > > why thinking > > > > > > > > > > > of doing makes us scared, perhaps so scared we avoid > > > > > > > > > > > standing up.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted > > ... > > read more » -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.
