An example of activism today: http://legaltimes.typepad.com/blt/2009/12/dc-circuit-takes-up-presidential-oath-case.html
and this, which includes the full text of the motion and memorandum in support: http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2009/12/newdow-asks-dc-circuit-to-eliminate.html http://legaltimes.typepad.com/blt/2009/12/appeals-court-denies-challenge-to-saying-god-save-the-united-states.html http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2408689/posts http://www.topix.com/us/federal-court-dc/2009/12/on-appeal On Dec 18, 5:35 am, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > I've seen a couple of documentaries lately about US Vietnam war > protests. The US vs John Lennon is worth the price of admission even > if you are not a fan of his later music. To hear John tell of the way > that Abbe Hoffman used and misused his words until Lennon publicly > split from Hoffman and began his own version of a peace movement. The > Life and Times of Alan Ginsberg, showed some rare footage from the > University of Chicago of the Democratic Convention riots in Chicago. > While Abbe Hoffman and his crew were mixing it up with the cops and > military outside the convention, the poet (Howl) Alan Ginsberg and > tens of thousands held a peaceful prayer vigil farther north in the > city, in Lincoln Park. > > Without going into the right or wrong of it, in the end, all > contributed to the voice that was heard over many years of mounting > protest. > > On Dec 18, 4:50 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Our governments and press actually hide wars from us over here. We > > had a big war in Indonesia for a couple of decades that drew very > > little attention, no doubt because it was us doing most of the killing > > (over 30,000). The 'War of Disconsolate Sheep' was reported by one > > BBC guy mostly. This war was prefaced by US refusal to supply > > aircraft parts to Argentina and some dodgy intelligence-led disruption > > of their equipment buying. I have seen no credible footage from Iraq > > or Afghanistan of what we really did and are doing. The coverage of > > Vietnam in the UK was similar to that in the US - this was the last of > > the real reporting. > > I agree entirely with Molly on the need for real protest (people were > > killed by cops). The US Embassy in Grosvenor Square was under regular > > siege here. Footage of these events was shown to me in 'how not to do > > public order policing' sessions, all forgotten in the Miners' Strike. > > Blair Peach, a New Zealander, died in London. Lee is probably a bit > > too young to remember. The right-wing view now is that protests > > stopped the needed victories. > > Student protest has gone, despite there being many more of them. > > These days they are supposed to learn how to become bureaucrats in > > the armies of oppression, not try to change them. We teach > > selfishness. Orn's List is easily agreed by most in here I suspect, > > but it is hidden in News and Double Speaks (not his). I believe key > > ideologies-in-use are involved, not least the notion that the West > > (which includes Japan and maybe China) must stay on top or we will > > find ourselves out-gunned - this means we must win economically to > > have the resources for R & D to stay ahead (economics and diplomacy as > > 'war by other means') and in turn that 'protest' is an internal danger > > of fools who don't understand the 'big picture' and lead us like lambs > > to the slaughter. This is a very powerful ideology and we hear bits > > of it across threads in here. I am by no means dismissive of it > > myself. Sino-Soviet Paradises were nothing of the kind. The question > > is whether there is a more honest way to genuine democracies of public > > scrutiny. > > It is only the 'burnt-out cop' in me that rails a bit against Molly's > > words, perhaps because they are right in-themselves, but the problem > > is one of getting wider reflection and dialogue (which I know she > > supports). Any criticism here is as much self-projection of fears of > > my own complexity and wishes I could do 'Dirty Harry by peaceful > > means', as of the ideas. Chris has jumped in often enough with the > > basic statement that 'protest industries' have their own interests and > > these are often about niche marketing. I fear a recreation of The > > Guardians amongst language only a few can understand, a mere place of > > conscience amongst business as usual. In grim form this is the Church > > of England. > > History in England is such that we are learning today that we nuked a > > fair bit of South Australia in the 1950s. The facts of British > > history are gruesome. Yet no politician dares say this, and indeed > > they all roll out the need to be proud to be British, suggesting the > > ideologies can be relied on to run deep and in crushing majority. We > > need to be able to demand a New Deal and to engage in practical > > projects that are not just initiatives. We need something beyond the > > literacy we are all rather good at, I suspect a 'new language'. > > > On 17 Dec, 17:52, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Cheers to you, my friend. > > > > On Dec 17, 12:19 pm, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Cheers Moll's. > > > > > On 17 Dec, 16:57, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Here is a good read: > > > > > >http://www.answers.com/topic/vietnam-antiwar-movement > > > > > > On Dec 17, 11:37 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > In fact did any protests stop US involment in the Vietnam war? > > > > > > > On 17 Dec, 16:12, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > civil rights for the African Americans in the US, or migrant > > > > > > > workers, > > > > > > > or women, did not happen over night. One protest did not stop US > > > > > > > involvement in the Viet Nam war. Each movement took years, many > > > > > > > marches, many people, many organizations. Getting PR for it all > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > always been a problem, and something each organization must deal > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > to be effective. > > > > > > > > On Dec 17, 4:24 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Sorry Molly I have to disagree with you here. Did you see any > > > > > > > > news > > > > > > > > covargae of Copenhagan yesterday? Specifily the demonstrators, > > > > > > > > talking about how they don't want big corperations making money > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > 'Green Issues' and how it should be all of us banding together > > > > > > > > to make > > > > > > > > real changes at grass roots level. > > > > > > > > > Very interseting and something that I can certianly get with. > > > > > > > > How > > > > > > > > much notice was taken of these people? Our news focused more > > > > > > > > on the > > > > > > > > police/protester clash. These people made a lot of noise, now > > > > > > > > lets > > > > > > > > wait and see what effect on the those with the actual power to > > > > > > > > make > > > > > > > > changes it has, if any. > > > > > > > > > The only political power that the avarage man in the street has > > > > > > > > ever > > > > > > > > had is one of revolution. > > > > > > > > > On 15 Dec, 18:00, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I think we are only politically impotent when we do not > > > > > > > > > involve > > > > > > > > > ourselves in politics in a way direct enough to allow our > > > > > > > > > influence on > > > > > > > > > the political matters that effect our lives. We are all > > > > > > > > > presented > > > > > > > > > with myriad opportunities to become directly involved with > > > > > > > > > grass roots > > > > > > > > > politics, and from there, our sphere of influence expands in > > > > > > > > > direct > > > > > > > > > relationship to our unifiying efforts. Staying in our ivory > > > > > > > > > towers > > > > > > > > > complaining about what we think is wrong in the world leads to > > > > > > > > > impotence. Participation leads to empowerment. A reality > > > > > > > > > check of > > > > > > > > > our expectations may be in order. > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 14, 5:43 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I think those of us that care will try Neil, and the > > > > > > > > > > othyers will just > > > > > > > > > > carry on as normal. How do you make somebody care? I > > > > > > > > > > guess you > > > > > > > > > > can't. > > > > > > > > > > > On 11 Dec, 22:57, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > That seems to be the case Lee. I don't know how we beat > > > > > > > > > > > it, just that > > > > > > > > > > > we should try. Yet trying hurts because they are so > > > > > > > > > > > smarmy. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11 Dec, 14:29, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good question man. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Voter apathy? Personaly I feel this impotentance > > > > > > > > > > > > myself. I can feel > > > > > > > > > > > > the rage building every time I see one of the smarmy > > > > > > > > > > > > little sods on > > > > > > > > > > > > TV, yep I mean politicians. > > > > > > > > > > > > > What angers me the most is the aviodance of answering > > > > > > > > > > > > the question put > > > > > > > > > > > > to you. Instead they take the question as an > > > > > > > > > > > > oppertunity to slag off > > > > > > > > > > > > the opposition(okay I can expect a certian amount of > > > > > > > > > > > > this with a > > > > > > > > > > > > general election due) or answer a question they really > > > > > > > > > > > > wish to answer, > > > > > > > > > > > > but not the one asked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do I feel impotent? Because I know no matter which > > > > > > > > > > > > way I vote, > > > > > > > > > > > > due to the ammount of people that just wont bother, and > > > > > > > > > > > > the ammount of > > > > > > > > > > > > people that will vote not according to their > > > > > > > > > > > > conciounse, but in line > > > > > > > > > > > > with what the media portrays, well I fear we'll have no > > > > > > > > > > > > more than a > > > > > > > > > > > > repeat of what has been going on for as long as I can > > > > > > > > > > > > remember. > > > > > > > > > > > > > People get fed up with fed up with the sleaze of > > > > > > > > > > > > present goverment as > > > > > > > > > > > > portayed in the media, and just vote the opposition in, > > > > > > > > > > > > no matter who > > > > > > > > > > > > that opposition is. Then perhaps 8, or 10, or 12 years > > > > > > > > > > > > later people > > > > > > > > > > > > get pissed off with the sleaze of goverement and vote > > > > > > > > > > > > the opposition > > > > > > > > > > > > in. Round and round we go again and again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11 Dec, 13:48, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most people I've known anywhere in the world have had > > > > > > > > > > > > > little time for > > > > > > > > > > > > > politics. The basic reason given is that politicians > > > > > > > > > > > > > feather their > > > > > > > > > > > > > own nests. Fear and ingroup hatreds often lead to > > > > > > > > > > > > > tribal or sectarian > > > > > > > > > > > > > voting. Perhaps, underneath this, is that many just > > > > > > > > > > > > > want to get on > > > > > > > > > > > > > with their own lives - something most people see as > > > > > > > > > > > > > harmless. Most > > > > > > > > > > > > > people also feel their efforts would be useless a > > > > > > > > > > > > > kind of impotence > > > > > > > > > > > > > seems involved. I have never found it possible to > > > > > > > > > > > > > vote for changes I > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.
