On Jun 6, 12:36 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote: > Hey Pat, > > I simply do not see the differance here, apart from using differant > words to say the same thing. Which is odd, as you have always > maintianed that there is only Gods will and our 'freewill' is but an > illusion. Now I see you saying 'You can choose to act on God's > 'guidance'. >
Yes, unfortunately, I have to use a language and, to date, English has no single word for "an apparent choice that is, in reality, not a choice but a display of God's will via human intervention", so I DO sometimes use the word choice without the full qualification. I still maintain the veracity of my original concept. It is only an apparent choice. Nevertheless, that appearance is vital because we can't avoid it. Veiled from the future, we must act (better?) on what information we have and our own ruminations about that information. That is our 'apparent' choice. > Which looks wholey like what I have always maintained is 'freewill', > the freedom to choose God or not, or in your words the freedom to > choose to act on God's guidance. > Except for thre is no freedom in a space-time continuum in which there are no missing points. Again, this is accepted scientific FACT! > Yes indeed that is what I claim is the point, the surrendering of your > will to God's will. I find the same idea expressed everywhere, in all > religion, it is not soley a Muslim thing my freind. Indeed if as I > also have always maintiand there is but one God, then why would God > pass down differant messages? > Because mankind's understanding of the universe has changed over time. Plus, many of the restrictions imposed on the Jews were relaxed in Islam. It's purely my view that the reason behind this update was that many of the restrictions imposed in Judaism are not and never were a part of the Torah, so the revelation MAY actually be in complete keeping with the original Torah; but, of course, this can never be verified until we find a copy of the Torah that precedes the Masoretic text. In order to be anywhere near acceptable, it would have to be written in a proto-Sinaitic language, i.e., a language that precedes Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic and is the parent language to them all. > God says, here, I have granted you the freedom to choose or deny me. > But you are dissperate groups with difering mindsets and customs and > cultures, so perhaps for you people it is best you do it this way, and > for you others I have also provided a path suitible to your mind. > There's that too. The core of the message, though, is always the same: What is hateful to you, do not do to others. Love God, Love one another. Don't murder. These kinds of basics are the core truth and, as they reside in the sacred texts of most religions, are, I feel safe to say, the essence of God's guidance. But, people do murder and there are those who hate for hate's sake. But, since we live in a teleological universe (again PROVEN by Special Relativity), there IS a purpose for these events; we just may never know exactly what they are. Respecting that, I would suggest to trust the Creator to have created, as Plato suggested, the best universe createable. Otherwise, God is letting God and everything down and that doesn't jive with an omnipotent, all-wise God, does it? > On Jun 6, 10:29 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 1, 1:04 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > Ahh Gabs this is where Pat and RP are likely to disagree with me. > > > > God would not force Gods will upon us but asks that we choose instead > > > to abandon our will in favour of Gods will. This is the will of God. > > > Not outright disagree, just reinterpret. There is only the Will of > > God. You can choose to act on God's 'guidance' as proffered in > > various revelations or not and, of course, God has revealed in those > > revelations that it would be better for us if we took His advice. > > There can be no abandonmemt by an omnipresent God, as it is a logical > > absurdity. > > > > There can be no greater prayer than 'Not my will O lord, but yours'. > > > Which is a blatant submission of your Will to God's!!!!! This is the > > Islamic view completely. LOL!! Swap the turban for a prayer > > mat. ;-) It is for exactly the reason you cite that Muslim's claim > > that Jesus died a Muslim because he stated almost exactly those words > > in Gethsemene, "Not my will, but Thine be done." > > > > On Jun 1, 12:41 pm, gabbydott <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > The con-science (this one is for you, Molly :)) that you introduce is > > > > not > > > > merely a biological by-product of human evolution as can be seen in many > > > > maturity processes, is it? If it is bound to the "I" factor, the way you > > > > postulate you thesis, there must have been an active control setting > > > > involved. Is this what you call the Will of God? Where does this leave > > > > the > > > > early moral educators then? Where is their long term benefit? > > > > > On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 4:54 AM, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Man has such a thing as conscience which develops from early childhood > > > > > , a man must do what is good according to his conscience whether it is > > > > > an impulse or a matter of reasoning; most of the time bad impulses > > > > > give only short time gains , if you sacrifice your instincts you gain > > > > > long term benefits. > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 2:25 AM, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > We need our impulses as much as we need our reasoning abilities. > > > > > > There > > > > > > are good and bad impulses. There is good and bad reasoning. > > > > > > > Who determines what is longterm or short term? History and lives are > > > > > > replete with unintended consequences. > > > > > > > We are not the only concern of God, you know! That would be hubris. > > > > > > I > > > > > > read the other day that intuition is the remnant of animal instinct > > > > > > since we have so dulled our natural senses. I also noted a stroll > > > > > > by a > > > > > > mallard and his mate for a couple of evenings along my driveway that > > > > > > was so sweet- as sweet as any human couple. He was very polite > > > > > > waddling a few paces behind while she nibbled the seed casings > > > > > > fallen > > > > > > from boulevard trees. They retired to the creek. > > > > > > > On May 31, 12:31 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> The Will of God is not visible and one's nature is not a single > > > > > >> entity--good or bad , rather one's nature contains both good and > > > > > >> bad , > > > > > >> the super-ego and the id. It is in one's hand to follow the good > > > > > >> prompting of his nature or the evil in him. It is your choice , do > > > > > >> good in the interest of longterm benefit or the bad for short-term > > > > > >> gains.As to the Will of God , He has made you a partner in His > > > > > >> Will , > > > > > >> you have to choose, act with reason or follow your impulses like a > > > > > >> madman. > > > > > > >> On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 10:00 PM, Pat > > > > > >> <[email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> > On May 31, 5:24 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> >> Whatever a man does he is bound to do as the Will of God is > > > > > >> >> supreme, > > > > > >> >> but a person is not a robot. The " I " is an active agent and > > > > > >> >> it is > > > > > >> >> the individual who taking control over his nature does good in > > > > > >> >> this > > > > > >> >> world and on letting himself go does the bad. Strength of > > > > > >> >> resolve is > > > > > >> >> inherent in every person , some use it a lot, others let their > > > > > >> >> impulses rule most of the time. It is in man's hand to keep his > > > > > nature > > > > > >> >> under control , and again in his hand to let it run amok. > > > > > > >> > I agree with one exception. Actually, it's more of an > > > > > >> > inclusion. An > > > > > >> > individual must discover their nature before taking control of > > > > > >> > it. > > > > > >> > Then the rest follows...good or bad. For example, I fully > > > > > >> > believe > > > > > >> > that Charles Manson DID discover his true nature and STILL > > > > > >> > inflicted > > > > > >> > great injuries against humanity. The same for Hitler. > > > > > >> > Sometimes, > > > > > >> > knowing one's nature does not prevent one from doing evil but > > > > > >> > leads > > > > > >> > them to do it. In other words, if it is God's will that X be > > > > > >> > done and > > > > > >> > X is perceived by most people to be evil, X will still be done, > > > > > >> > as it > > > > > >> > is the will of God.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
