Yes mankinds understanding has chnaged, but I don't belive God's message has do you?
On Jun 6, 1:30 pm, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > On Jun 6, 12:36 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Hey Pat, > > > I simply do not see the differance here, apart from using differant > > words to say the same thing. Which is odd, as you have always > > maintianed that there is only Gods will and our 'freewill' is but an > > illusion. Now I see you saying 'You can choose to act on God's > > 'guidance'. > > Yes, unfortunately, I have to use a language and, to date, English has > no single word for "an apparent choice that is, in reality, not a > choice but a display of God's will via human intervention", so I DO > sometimes use the word choice without the full qualification. I still > maintain the veracity of my original concept. It is only an apparent > choice. Nevertheless, that appearance is vital because we can't avoid > it. Veiled from the future, we must act (better?) on what information > we have and our own ruminations about that information. That is our > 'apparent' choice. > > > Which looks wholey like what I have always maintained is 'freewill', > > the freedom to choose God or not, or in your words the freedom to > > choose to act on God's guidance. > > Except for thre is no freedom in a space-time continuum in which there > are no missing points. Again, this is accepted scientific FACT! > > > Yes indeed that is what I claim is the point, the surrendering of your > > will to God's will. I find the same idea expressed everywhere, in all > > religion, it is not soley a Muslim thing my freind. Indeed if as I > > also have always maintiand there is but one God, then why would God > > pass down differant messages? > > Because mankind's understanding of the universe has changed over > time. Plus, many of the restrictions imposed on the Jews were relaxed > in Islam. It's purely my view that the reason behind this update was > that many of the restrictions imposed in Judaism are not and never > were a part of the Torah, so the revelation MAY actually be in > complete keeping with the original Torah; but, of course, this can > never be verified until we find a copy of the Torah that precedes the > Masoretic text. In order to be anywhere near acceptable, it would > have to be written in a proto-Sinaitic language, i.e., a language that > precedes Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic and is the parent language to them > all. > > > God says, here, I have granted you the freedom to choose or deny me. > > But you are dissperate groups with difering mindsets and customs and > > cultures, so perhaps for you people it is best you do it this way, and > > for you others I have also provided a path suitible to your mind. > > There's that too. The core of the message, though, is always the > same: What is hateful to you, do not do to others. Love God, Love one > another. Don't murder. These kinds of basics are the core truth and, > as they reside in the sacred texts of most religions, are, I feel safe > to say, the essence of God's guidance. But, people do murder and > there are those who hate for hate's sake. But, since we live in a > teleological universe (again PROVEN by Special Relativity), there IS a > purpose for these events; we just may never know exactly what they > are. Respecting that, I would suggest to trust the Creator to have > created, as Plato suggested, the best universe createable. Otherwise, > God is letting God and everything down and that doesn't jive with an > omnipotent, all-wise God, does it? > > > > > On Jun 6, 10:29 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On Jun 1, 1:04 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > Ahh Gabs this is where Pat and RP are likely to disagree with me. > > > > > God would not force Gods will upon us but asks that we choose instead > > > > to abandon our will in favour of Gods will. This is the will of God. > > > > Not outright disagree, just reinterpret. There is only the Will of > > > God. You can choose to act on God's 'guidance' as proffered in > > > various revelations or not and, of course, God has revealed in those > > > revelations that it would be better for us if we took His advice. > > > There can be no abandonmemt by an omnipresent God, as it is a logical > > > absurdity. > > > > > There can be no greater prayer than 'Not my will O lord, but yours'. > > > > Which is a blatant submission of your Will to God's!!!!! This is the > > > Islamic view completely. LOL!! Swap the turban for a prayer > > > mat. ;-) It is for exactly the reason you cite that Muslim's claim > > > that Jesus died a Muslim because he stated almost exactly those words > > > in Gethsemene, "Not my will, but Thine be done." > > > > > On Jun 1, 12:41 pm, gabbydott <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > The con-science (this one is for you, Molly :)) that you introduce is > > > > > not > > > > > merely a biological by-product of human evolution as can be seen in > > > > > many > > > > > maturity processes, is it? If it is bound to the "I" factor, the way > > > > > you > > > > > postulate you thesis, there must have been an active control setting > > > > > involved. Is this what you call the Will of God? Where does this > > > > > leave the > > > > > early moral educators then? Where is their long term benefit? > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 4:54 AM, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Man has such a thing as conscience which develops from early > > > > > > childhood > > > > > > , a man must do what is good according to his conscience whether it > > > > > > is > > > > > > an impulse or a matter of reasoning; most of the time bad impulses > > > > > > give only short time gains , if you sacrifice your instincts you > > > > > > gain > > > > > > long term benefits. > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 2:25 AM, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > We need our impulses as much as we need our reasoning abilities. > > > > > > > There > > > > > > > are good and bad impulses. There is good and bad reasoning. > > > > > > > > Who determines what is longterm or short term? History and lives > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > replete with unintended consequences. > > > > > > > > We are not the only concern of God, you know! That would be > > > > > > > hubris. I > > > > > > > read the other day that intuition is the remnant of animal > > > > > > > instinct > > > > > > > since we have so dulled our natural senses. I also noted a stroll > > > > > > > by a > > > > > > > mallard and his mate for a couple of evenings along my driveway > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > was so sweet- as sweet as any human couple. He was very polite > > > > > > > waddling a few paces behind while she nibbled the seed casings > > > > > > > fallen > > > > > > > from boulevard trees. They retired to the creek. > > > > > > > > On May 31, 12:31 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > >> The Will of God is not visible and one's nature is not a single > > > > > > >> entity--good or bad , rather one's nature contains both good and > > > > > > >> bad , > > > > > > >> the super-ego and the id. It is in one's hand to follow the good > > > > > > >> prompting of his nature or the evil in him. It is your choice , > > > > > > >> do > > > > > > >> good in the interest of longterm benefit or the bad for > > > > > > >> short-term > > > > > > >> gains.As to the Will of God , He has made you a partner in His > > > > > > >> Will , > > > > > > >> you have to choose, act with reason or follow your impulses like > > > > > > >> a > > > > > > >> madman. > > > > > > > >> On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 10:00 PM, Pat > > > > > > >> <[email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> > On May 31, 5:24 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > >> >> Whatever a man does he is bound to do as the Will of God is > > > > > > >> >> supreme, > > > > > > >> >> but a person is not a robot. The " I " is an active agent and > > > > > > >> >> it is > > > > > > >> >> the individual who taking control over his nature does good > > > > > > >> >> in this > > > > > > >> >> world and on letting himself go does the bad. Strength of > > > > > > >> >> resolve is > > > > > > >> >> inherent in every person , some use it a lot, others let their > > > > > > >> >> impulses rule most of the time. It is in man's hand to keep > > > > > > >> >> his > > > > > > nature > > > > > > >> >> under control , and again in his hand to let it run amok. > > > > > > > >> > I agree with one exception. Actually, it's more of an > > > > > > >> > inclusion. An > > > > > > >> > individual must discover their nature before taking control of > > > > > > >> > it. > > > > > > >> > Then the rest follows...good or bad. For example, I fully > > > > > > >> > believe > > > > > > >> > that Charles Manson DID discover his true nature and STILL > > > > > > >> > inflicted > > > > > > >> > great injuries against humanity. The same for Hitler. > > > > > > >> > Sometimes, > > > > > > >> > knowing one's nature does not prevent one from doing evil but > > > > > > >> > leads > > > > > > >> > them to do it. In other words, if it is God's will that X be > > > > > > >> > done and > > > > > > >> > X is perceived by most people to be evil, X will still be > > > > > > >> > done, as it > > > > > > >> > is the will of God.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
