Let me save some pennies (wonder what flight and hotel plus the ticket cost 
will be?) so we can make arrangements. I think it would be great, my oldest 
brother is a fan but he lives in Australia 
Allan

On 28 jul. 2011, at 22:54, paradox <[email protected]> wrote:

> Well Allan, if you ever decide to go see a match, let me know; i'd be
> delighted :)
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 28, 9:15 pm, Allan Heretic <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Someday I may have the honor of see a game hopefully with some one as 
>> knowledgeable as you.
>> Allan
>> 
>> On 28 jul. 2011, at 11:42, paradox <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Lol. Yeah, i've seen some innovation in rugby, for sure.
>> 
>>> Well, cricket is one sport that i am passionate about (at least as far
>>> as i can be passionate about sport). It's at once a game of supreme
>>> patience and incredible reaction speed. You have the batsman who, with
>>> the right "guard" and standing perfectly motionless, is practically
>>> impenetrable, against a bowler and 10 strategically placed teammates
>>> who patiently and cleverly induce the batsman to make a "false" stroke
>>> with ever so subtle changes in the speed, flight, movement, trajectory
>>> and/or spin of the ball. When it happens, it can be a beautiful
>>> thing :)
>> 
>>> On Jul 28, 7:23 am, Allan Heretic <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Until I came to Europe I never was a fan of any sport, since I have become 
>>>> a fan of rugby ,, ever since I watched a man fall on the ball with the 
>>>> other team piled on top.  But his legs were sticking out of the pile. So 
>>>> his mates (6) grabbed his legs and used him like a wheel barrow. As for 
>>>> cricket,, I have never gotten it wrapped around my mind.
>>>> Allan
>> 
>>>> On 27 jul. 2011, at 17:42, paradox <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 
>>>>> I thought that Relativity was pretty revolutionary, actually; less
>>>>> "fundamental" than perhaps String Theory, but frame shifting for sure.
>> 
>>>>> So, you're a rugby man, eh? I'm more cricketer myself; all that
>>>>> physical contact would have strained my control beyond breaking
>>>>> point :)
>> 
>>>>> Btw, your ballet's not at all lacking :)
>> 
>>>>> On Jul 26, 5:35 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> The point, Para, is not that Einstein is bull, but that interpreting
>>>>>> Relativity as 'new physics' always was.  I did my dancing on the rugby
>>>>>> field so you can expect my ballet to be clumsy!  Chemistry is more my
>>>>>> line, but Ludwig and Snell satisfy me that the 'paradigm' stuff is
>>>>>> wonky.  I suspect we are collectively very dumb as an alternative to
>>>>>> enlightenment concepts - most people don't learn much.  Thus they
>>>>>> remain prey to the Old One.  Indeed, it's the propaganda of the Old
>>>>>> One that prevents enlightened society, aimed as it is at the dumb.  I
>>>>>> believe this may be what leaves us with only the worst of democracy.
>>>>>> There has been no enlightenment,only some space developed away from
>>>>>> the old Idols.
>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 26, 1:01 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 
>>>>>>> Not sure of what you mean. Do you want e-books to be controlled in
>>>>>>> content? Take history, for a long time it was written by the winners/
>>>>>>> colonists, etc. until the "losers" started publishing their stories/
>>>>>>> recollections. A good example is "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee".
>>>>>>> There are countless books/ personal confessionals (St. Augustine,
>>>>>>> Newman, C.S. Lewis, etc.) that have inspired others- perhaps readied
>>>>>>> them for a personal journey of their own. The "enlightenment" is not
>>>>>>> always religious/spiritual- there are the arts of man/women which also
>>>>>>> inspire an individual/society. There is also propaganda and deceit as
>>>>>>> a path to power.
>> 
>>>>>>> On Jul 25, 11:13 am, Allan Heretic <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 
>>>>>>>> LOL. Yeah I am still here,
>>>>>>>> Enlightenment is a fascinating subject, to me it always will be an 
>>>>>>>> experience(s) yet there are may book thumpers thumpers can sight 
>>>>>>>> article and books many volumes justifying what they have to say. When 
>>>>>>>> you get discussing enlightenment you begin discussing personal 
>>>>>>>> experience not that of others.
>>>>>>>> Putting it simply in my opinion your personal experiences will stand 
>>>>>>>> on their own ..
>>>>>>>> Allan
>> 
>>>>>>>> On 25 jul. 2011, at 16:30, paradox <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 
>>>>>>>>> Thing is archytas, though i dont altogether feel "on board" with your
>>>>>>>>> critical insights, your arguments are resonant and very persuasive :)
>> 
>>>>>>>>> Nice pirouette with "optimism" :)
>> 
>>>>>>>>> You think Einstein's work was "bull"? Steady archytas, we have the one
>>>>>>>>> "heretic" here already...alan? :)
>> 
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the insights.
>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 24, 6:12 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> That's more or less what I mean Para - I certainly no rationalist per
>>>>>>>>>> se.  The free rider problem is very complicated though, especially
>>>>>>>>>> since accumulated wealth is now the major 'player'.  I suspect
>>>>>>>>>> neurocracy and collective stupidity as points for optimism - if we're
>>>>>>>>>> all planning this mess we're in deep trouble!  What may be depressing
>>>>>>>>>> is that most people wouldn't want better times - we're so used to
>>>>>>>>>> false promises there are no stories about what we'd be doing in 
>>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>> times.  I doubt anything rational is other than what emerges as
>>>>>>>>>> explanations that have been in dialogue, but you quickly learn, doing
>>>>>>>>>> science, that most people can't hack doing the observations and
>>>>>>>>>> measurements, let alone internal scrutiny. Some seem to have 
>>>>>>>>>> developed
>>>>>>>>>> ways with words (sometime figures) almost at a kind of disjuncture
>>>>>>>>>> with reality there to witness.  I tend to prefer notions like
>>>>>>>>>> hospitality anbd obligation to ones like charity (Davidson and others
>>>>>>>>>> in 'radical translation') and stronger notions like communicative
>>>>>>>>>> action 'extirpating ideology'.  We do seem to get left with choice at
>>>>>>>>>> some point, but these are often overdone as in 'mechanistic Newton
>>>>>>>>>> versus new physics Einstein' (bull) - people just don't work hard
>>>>>>>>>> enough.  Like Orn I've long been fascinated with 'there must be more
>>>>>>>>>> than this' - but for me the point is there always is more, along with
>>>>>>>>>> a lot of disappointment that I'm rarely interested in what others 
>>>>>>>>>> are.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 24, 9:56 am, paradox <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> You're nothing if not passionate, archytas :)
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> You cry when Warrington lose? Archytas my friend, you really ought 
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> get out more :)
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Much of what you say here is good social democratic stuff, though i
>>>>>>>>>>> suspect that a concept of "rational optimism" is something of a
>>>>>>>>>>> misnomer. I admire your optimism, not so sure about the rationality;
>>>>>>>>>>> in Nature, there is no such thing as equality, as you know; and
>>>>>>>>>>> "manufactured" equality only works in rational choice if you fix the
>>>>>>>>>>> "free rider" problem; dont know that we have? In any event, quite
>>>>>>>>>>> asides from the intuitive appeal, how do we know that equality in 
>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> one of these "states" that "are inexplicable or cannot be
>>>>>>>>>>> demonstrated", that you refer to? To be fair, your argument drifts
>>>>>>>>>>> closer to equality in obligation than to equality in right; which
>>>>>>>>>>> certainly is less problemmatic, certainly laudable.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> You think we're all "collectively stupid"? That doesn't sound very
>>>>>>>>>>> optimistic, archytas :)
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 23, 7:56 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Equality is difficult if all we do is play with definition.  I see 
>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>> fairly subjectively as a kind of promise from me to do my best by
>>>>>>>>>>>> others when the opportunity presents - but it's also connected with
>>>>>>>>>>>> more social rules in place to keep us straight.  Equality didn't 
>>>>>>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>>>>>> me a better half-back than Alex Murphy, but I got in a few sides as
>>>>>>>>>>>> hooker.  We all took the same match-fees back then.  My sister was 
>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>> good an athlete, but there was no professional sport for women.  Of
>>>>>>>>>>>> course, it's not in these trivial areas that equality needs to 
>>>>>>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm afraid I've met too many 'jerkoffs of inner glow' to spend to 
>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>> time looking at bandages.  We have a bad record on 'inner 
>>>>>>>>>>>> reliance' in
>>>>>>>>>>>> any simple form - and for that matter I'm currently watching my old
>>>>>>>>>>>> team being slaughtered in the open!  I might wonder what Wigan have
>>>>>>>>>>>> been fed on - but we have drug testing.  Some form of equality 
>>>>>>>>>>>> makes
>>>>>>>>>>>> it possible for games like this to take place, even if one side
>>>>>>>>>>>> appears so much better than the other.  We are not all born with 
>>>>>>>>>>>> equal
>>>>>>>>>>>> abilities to play rugby league, and its not that kind of equality 
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> interests me (uniformity).  There is a manufactured equality 
>>>>>>>>>>>> involved
>>>>>>>>>>>> that does.
>>>>>>>>>>>> That there are ways to experience and more than the 5 senses we
>>>>>>>>>>>> generally acknowledge seems clear enough, but much of the stuff we
>>>>>>>>>>>> come out with trying to explain this is dire.  In epistemology
>>>>>>>>>>>> (broadly defined) it regularly becomes clear that you can't achieve
>>>>>>>>>>>> some clear and grounded system and that assumptions you didn't know
>>>>>>>>>>>> you were making come out.  This more or less leaves me with 
>>>>>>>>>>>> structured
>>>>>>>>>>>> realism, but this leaves plenty of scope.  Most of the time I can 
>>>>>>>>>>>> tell
>>>>>>>>>>>> whether evidence claims are not phony in such a system - this 
>>>>>>>>>>>> sadly is
>>>>>>>>>>>> not true of introspectively divined light and glow.  The long 
>>>>>>>>>>>> history
>>>>>>>>>>>> of this, taken externally, is not good. I can find light and glow, 
>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>> I still find it hard not to cry watching Warrington lose.  Neither
>>>>>>>>>>>> matter in a larger sense of things.  Equality doesn't collapse on 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> obvious issue that we are not all equal if that equality is 
>>>>>>>>>>>> built-into
>>>>>>>>>>>> the public domain (it is increasingly obvious this isn't the case
>>>>>>>>>>>> because of the operation of wealth in law and education).  I'm a
>>>>>>>>>>>> rational optimist in that this is not the best of all possible 
>>>>>>>>>>>> worlds
>>>>>>>>>>>> and we can do better.  I suspect the fix for modern narcissism is 
>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>> under the bandages of the Old One and that doing our best for each
>>>>>>>>>>>> other is a matter
>> 
>> ...
>> 
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