Sorry for that. It must be foggy. My apologies.
On Aug 12, 2:26 pm, paradox <[email protected]> wrote: > I haven't got the foggiest idea what you're going on about here, > Vam :) > > And who on earth is this "someone in history" that you keep referring > to?? > > On Aug 9, 9:58 am, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I won't say I was aghast... but I would still suggest we continue to > > use our cerebral matter. > > > The point is (1) : We ( or someone in history you know of ) sometime > > choose PAIN for the body, for pleasure of the mind... > > > The point is (2) : We ( or someone in history you know of ) sometime > > choose PAIN for the body and PAIN for the mind, for values established > > in the intellect... > > > The point is (3) : We ( or someone in history you know of ) sometime > > choose PAIN for the body, PAIN for the mind and PAIN (= sense of > > loss ) for the intellect... for call of freedom in spirit. > > > We have the power to choose PAIN ! Even hunger, death... > > > Spent people, people who've never won over their self... speak of > > determinism as a truth. > > > Fate is fact of the moment... that can add up to a smothered or lulled > > life. Not the truth, which starts with us... and could be infinite ! > > > On Aug 9, 1:33 pm, paradox <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > This is not that great a mystery, Vam; why does anyone do anything > > > other than basic life regulation? They are either induced or > > > compelled. And what lies at the root of inducement or compulsion? > > > Pleasure or pain, however cerebral and sophisticated we are at > > > articulating it. So, "every which way is biology", the determinist > > > might say. > > > > On Aug 8, 12:02 pm, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Aye Ash... great to reconnect. > > > > > Actually, my observation about excessive imagination pertained to > > > > Rigsy saying that we could trace back the power to free will to its > > > > roots AND, conclusively stated, find the tendril of determinism. > > > > > If Rigsy has traced it back... we'd like to know the specifics and > > > > how / where did she find the determinism at its root ! > > > > > If she has not, which I presumed from the way she wrote, the > > > > determinism could only be a result of excessive imagination. > > > > > The method I spoke of involves understanding of the complex phenomenon > > > > we are. It is not logical, cerebral or intellectual... but > > > > experiential. Hence, it is impossible to lay it out on a forum like > > > > this. > > > > > Some of my thoughts on such an understanding is put out here : 1) > > > > @http://bit.ly/n3sFYg and 2) @ http://bit.ly/nppWDV > > > > > Those expecting to find God or its mention here will be frustrated. > > > > > On Aug 8, 7:53 am, Ash <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > On 8/7/2011 9:09 PM, Vam wrote:> That's the kind of pitfall one can > > > > > fall into... through excessive > > > > > > imagination. > > > > > > > There is a method to trace it back to the source. > > > > > > But I do not know of anyone here who is familiar with that method. > > > > > > Yourself included? > > > > > > Happy to see you again Vam, I am vividly eager to gain new > > > > > explanations > > > > > in this area, as all else has failed miserably to explain- and I have > > > > > been looking.. > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 9:16 pm, rigsy03<[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> One could trace the power back to its root and find the tendril of > > > > > >> determinism, imo. > > > > > > >> On Aug 7, 5:18 am, Vam<[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > >>> Let's assume nothing... except " the power to make our choice > > > > > >>> within > > > > > >>> certain constraints." > > > > > >>> We could be making a wrong choice, a less preferred choice... > > > > > >>> but we have the power to make it... and are free to make, or not. > > > > > >>> On Aug 6, 8:35 pm, paradox<[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >>>> Lets assume (in strategic logic) that all decisions are goal > > > > > >>>> directed, > > > > > >>>> and purposive. When we make (or think we make) a decision, are we > > > > > >>>> fully minded of our strategic goals, and do we conduct a > > > > > >>>> comprehensive > > > > > >>>> purposive review of our options and variables, to arrive at an > > > > > >>>> optimal > > > > > >>>> outcome with the best probability of advancing our strategic > > > > > >>>> goals? > > > > > >>>> One could argue that this is not free will in action, since the > > > > > >>>> strategic goal itself is subject to "organic" constraints; the > > > > > >>>> other > > > > > >>>> would have to concede, but could argue that the "decision > > > > > >>>> process" was > > > > > >>>> as freely made within overall system constraints as is possible > > > > > >>>> to do. > > > > > >>>> On Aug 6, 3:00 pm, Vam<[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >>>>> "... but is your decision freely made ?" > > > > > >>>>> What is meant by " freely " made ? > > > > > >>>>> Do you mean ' without being under the influence of gravity ' ? > > > > > >>>>> There will always be a dynamics in our background, and some in > > > > > >>>>> the > > > > > >>>>> foreground. So ? > > > > > >>>>> On Aug 6, 4:24 am, paradox<[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >>>>>> Do you really, Allan? Or do you really think you do? If you > > > > > >>>>>> always > > > > > >>>>>> have a choice of 'A', 'B', or 'C', but you were always ever > > > > > >>>>>> going to > > > > > >>>>>> choose 'C', you have free will, but is your decision freely > > > > > >>>>>> made? > > > > > >>>>>> On Aug 5, 8:04 pm, Allan Heretic<[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >>>>>>> You lays have free will no matter how you seeing it created. > > > > > >>>>>>> It is the consequences of those choices that can be a bitch, > > > > > >>>>>>> Allan > > > > > >>>>>>> On 4 aug. 2011, at 17:48, paradox<[email protected]> > > > > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > > > > >>>>>>>> There are a number of approaches to this question, Jo; but > > > > > >>>>>>>> essentially > > > > > >>>>>>>> and in summary (and i do a great injustice to a very powerful > > > > > >>>>>>>> philosophical school), the deterministic tradition suggests > > > > > >>>>>>>> that since > > > > > >>>>>>>> we''re fundamentally bounded chemical systems immersed in a > > > > > >>>>>>>> "sea" of > > > > > >>>>>>>> ever more elaborate chemical processes, regulated by > > > > > >>>>>>>> immutable > > > > > >>>>>>>> (replicable and predictive) physical laws, and nothing else > > > > > >>>>>>>> (which > > > > > >>>>>>>> takes you back to the mind/brain question), our actions are > > > > > >>>>>>>> no more > > > > > >>>>>>>> than expressions of these chemical processes, constrained at > > > > > >>>>>>>> an > > > > > >>>>>>>> aggregate level by universal physical laws. When we think we > > > > > >>>>>>>> make > > > > > >>>>>>>> decisions based on choice, it is the mind "stroking" itself > > > > > >>>>>>>> since, in > > > > > >>>>>>>> terms of "proximate" action, we know that our decisions are > > > > > >>>>>>>> preceeded > > > > > >>>>>>>> in time by a neuro-electrcal "footprint" (interesting work > > > > > >>>>>>>> by Benjamin > > > > > >>>>>>>> Libet, presented in his book "Mind Time"); and in terms of > > > > > >>>>>>>> more > > > > > >>>>>>>> deliberative action, we are pretty certain to make the same > > > > > >>>>>>>> decisions > > > > > >>>>>>>> over and over again given the same set of variables, since > > > > > >>>>>>>> our > > > > > >>>>>>>> cognition is hard wired, and its operations are governed by > > > > > >>>>>>>> the self > > > > > >>>>>>>> same chemical processes and physical laws. Hence the > > > > > >>>>>>>> question: do we > > > > > >>>>>>>> have free will? and if we do, how much free will do we have? > > > > > >>>>>>>> On Aug 2, 7:44 pm, Jo<[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >>>>>>>>> I don't understand how some can say we don't have free > > > > > >>>>>>>>> will. You can > > > > > >>>>>>>>> choose to do anything you want at any given time. How is > > > > > >>>>>>>>> that not free > > > > > >>>>>>>>> will? > > > > > >>>>>>>>> On Aug 2, 12:51 pm, archytas<[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> "We have access to a technology that would have looked > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> like sorcery in > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Descartes's day: the ability to peer inside someone's head > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> and read > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> their thoughts. Unfortunately, that doesn't take us any > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> nearer to > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> knowing whether they are sentient. "Even if you measure > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> brainwaves, > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> you can never know exactly what experience they > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> represent," says > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> psychologist Bruce Hood at the University of Bristol, UK. > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> If > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> anything, brain scanning has undermined Descartes's maxim. > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> You, too, > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> might be a zombie. "I happen to be one myself," says > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Stanford > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> University philosopher Paul Skokowski. "And so, even if > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> you don't > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> realise it, are you." Skokowski's assertion is based on > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> the belief, > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> particularly common among neuroscientists who study brain > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> scans, that > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> we do not have free will. There is no ghost in the > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> machine; our > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> actions are driven by brain states that lie entirely > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> beyond our > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> control. "I think, therefore I am" might be an illusion. > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> So, it may well be that you live in a computer simulation > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> in which you > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> are the only self-aware creature. I could well be a zombie > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> and so > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> could you. Have an interesting day." (from a recent New > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Scientist) > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> We range over debates in free will and what it is to be > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> human. So far > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> we haven't established free will or even that we are not > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> merely > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> avatars in 'something else's game'. > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> I wonder whether there are advantages in considering > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> ourselves as > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> creatures limited by programming and also capable of it?- > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Hide quoted text - > > > > > >>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > >>>>>>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > >>>>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > >>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -
