;o) Vam maybe of you are having trouble finding God maybe we need to
bring it up as a discussion..
("',) Allan
On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 8:09 PM, allan deheretic <[email protected]> wrote:
> am really glad to see you back van how do you arrive at "Those expecting
> to find God or its mention here will be frustrated."?? That has not been
> my experience.
> Allan
>
> On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Vam <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Aye Ash... great to reconnect.
>>
>> Actually, my observation about excessive imagination pertained to
>> Rigsy saying that we could trace back the power to free will to its
>> roots AND, conclusively stated, find the tendril of determinism.
>>
>> If Rigsy has traced it back... we'd like to know the specifics and
>> how / where did she find the determinism at its root !
>>
>> If she has not, which I presumed from the way she wrote, the
>> determinism could only be a result of excessive imagination.
>>
>> The method I spoke of involves understanding of the complex phenomenon
>> we are. It is not logical, cerebral or intellectual... but
>> experiential. Hence, it is impossible to lay it out on a forum like
>> this.
>>
>> Some of my thoughts on such an understanding is put out here : 1) @
>> http://bit.ly/n3sFYg and 2) @ http://bit.ly/nppWDV
>>
>> Those expecting to find God or its mention here will be frustrated.
>>
>> On Aug 8, 7:53 am, Ash <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > On 8/7/2011 9:09 PM, Vam wrote:> That's the kind of pitfall one can fall
>> into... through excessive
>> > > imagination.
>> >
>> > > There is a method to trace it back to the source.
>> > > But I do not know of anyone here who is familiar with that method.
>> >
>> > Yourself included?
>> >
>> > Happy to see you again Vam, I am vividly eager to gain new explanations
>> > in this area, as all else has failed miserably to explain- and I have
>> > been looking..
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > On Aug 7, 9:16 pm, rigsy03<[email protected]> wrote:
>> > >> One could trace the power back to its root and find the tendril of
>> > >> determinism, imo.
>> >
>> > >> On Aug 7, 5:18 am, Vam<[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> > >>> Let's assume nothing... except " the power to make our choice within
>> > >>> certain constraints."
>> > >>> We could be making a wrong choice, a less preferred choice...
>> > >>> but we have the power to make it... and are free to make, or not.
>> > >>> On Aug 6, 8:35 pm, paradox<[email protected]> wrote:
>> > >>>> Lets assume (in strategic logic) that all decisions are goal
>> directed,
>> > >>>> and purposive. When we make (or think we make) a decision, are we
>> > >>>> fully minded of our strategic goals, and do we conduct a
>> comprehensive
>> > >>>> purposive review of our options and variables, to arrive at an
>> optimal
>> > >>>> outcome with the best probability of advancing our strategic goals?
>> > >>>> One could argue that this is not free will in action, since the
>> > >>>> strategic goal itself is subject to "organic" constraints; the
>> other
>> > >>>> would have to concede, but could argue that the "decision process"
>> was
>> > >>>> as freely made within overall system constraints as is possible to
>> do.
>> > >>>> On Aug 6, 3:00 pm, Vam<[email protected]> wrote:
>> > >>>>> "... but is your decision freely made ?"
>> > >>>>> What is meant by " freely " made ?
>> > >>>>> Do you mean ' without being under the influence of gravity ' ?
>> > >>>>> There will always be a dynamics in our background, and some in the
>> > >>>>> foreground. So ?
>> > >>>>> On Aug 6, 4:24 am, paradox<[email protected]> wrote:
>> > >>>>>> Do you really, Allan? Or do you really think you do? If you
>> always
>> > >>>>>> have a choice of 'A', 'B', or 'C', but you were always ever going
>> to
>> > >>>>>> choose 'C', you have free will, but is your decision freely made?
>> > >>>>>> On Aug 5, 8:04 pm, Allan Heretic<[email protected]> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>> You lays have free will no matter how you seeing it created. It
>> is the consequences of those choices that can be a bitch,
>> > >>>>>>> Allan
>> > >>>>>>> On 4 aug. 2011, at 17:48, paradox<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> There are a number of approaches to this question, Jo; but
>> essentially
>> > >>>>>>>> and in summary (and i do a great injustice to a very powerful
>> > >>>>>>>> philosophical school), the deterministic tradition suggests
>> that since
>> > >>>>>>>> we''re fundamentally bounded chemical systems immersed in a
>> "sea" of
>> > >>>>>>>> ever more elaborate chemical processes, regulated by immutable
>> > >>>>>>>> (replicable and predictive) physical laws, and nothing else
>> (which
>> > >>>>>>>> takes you back to the mind/brain question), our actions are no
>> more
>> > >>>>>>>> than expressions of these chemical processes, constrained at an
>> > >>>>>>>> aggregate level by universal physical laws. When we think we
>> make
>> > >>>>>>>> decisions based on choice, it is the mind "stroking" itself
>> since, in
>> > >>>>>>>> terms of "proximate" action, we know that our decisions are
>> preceeded
>> > >>>>>>>> in time by a neuro-electrcal "footprint" (interesting work by
>> Benjamin
>> > >>>>>>>> Libet, presented in his book "Mind Time"); and in terms of more
>> > >>>>>>>> deliberative action, we are pretty certain to make the same
>> decisions
>> > >>>>>>>> over and over again given the same set of variables, since our
>> > >>>>>>>> cognition is hard wired, and its operations are governed by the
>> self
>> > >>>>>>>> same chemical processes and physical laws. Hence the question:
>> do we
>> > >>>>>>>> have free will? and if we do, how much free will do we have?
>> > >>>>>>>> On Aug 2, 7:44 pm, Jo<[email protected]> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>> I don't understand how some can say we don't have free will.
>> You can
>> > >>>>>>>>> choose to do anything you want at any given time. How is that
>> not free
>> > >>>>>>>>> will?
>> > >>>>>>>>> On Aug 2, 12:51 pm, archytas<[email protected]> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>>> "We have access to a technology that would have looked like
>> sorcery in
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Descartes's day: the ability to peer inside someone's head
>> and read
>> > >>>>>>>>>> their thoughts. Unfortunately, that doesn't take us any
>> nearer to
>> > >>>>>>>>>> knowing whether they are sentient. "Even if you measure
>> brainwaves,
>> > >>>>>>>>>> you can never know exactly what experience they represent,"
>> says
>> > >>>>>>>>>> psychologist Bruce Hood at the University of Bristol, UK. If
>> > >>>>>>>>>> anything, brain scanning has undermined Descartes's maxim.
>> You, too,
>> > >>>>>>>>>> might be a zombie. "I happen to be one myself," says Stanford
>> > >>>>>>>>>> University philosopher Paul Skokowski. "And so, even if you
>> don't
>> > >>>>>>>>>> realise it, are you." Skokowski's assertion is based on the
>> belief,
>> > >>>>>>>>>> particularly common among neuroscientists who study brain
>> scans, that
>> > >>>>>>>>>> we do not have free will. There is no ghost in the machine;
>> our
>> > >>>>>>>>>> actions are driven by brain states that lie entirely beyond
>> our
>> > >>>>>>>>>> control. "I think, therefore I am" might be an illusion.
>> > >>>>>>>>>> So, it may well be that you live in a computer simulation in
>> which you
>> > >>>>>>>>>> are the only self-aware creature. I could well be a zombie
>> and so
>> > >>>>>>>>>> could you. Have an interesting day." (from a recent New
>> Scientist)
>> > >>>>>>>>>> We range over debates in free will and what it is to be
>> human. So far
>> > >>>>>>>>>> we haven't established free will or even that we are not
>> merely
>> > >>>>>>>>>> avatars in 'something else's game'.
>> > >>>>>>>>>> I wonder whether there are advantages in considering
>> ourselves as
>> > >>>>>>>>>> creatures limited by programming and also capable of it?-
>> Hide quoted text -
>> > >>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>> > >>>>>>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> (
> )
> I_D Allan
>
> If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
> Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
>
>
--
(
)
I_D Allan
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
