darn now I will have to go out and find new maps.. besides with out look from where you came how else can you tell where you are.. the past is a viable reference point. Allan
On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 2:10 AM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > I don't mind exploring the unknown. It seems a bit pointless to > follow an old map drawn by a story-teller who places Louisiana off the > American west coast though. > > On Oct 5, 9:51 pm, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: > > Poly it took me many years to begin to understand the faith of my Father > and > > on his death he saw the gift he had been me ,just by hi believing. > > Allan > > On Oct 5, 2011 5:58 PM, "pol.science kid" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > These days in india the Durga puja and Dusshera is on full blow... and > > > will be followed by diwali... now i was persuaded by my Ma for going > > > to the temple after i dont know.. a very very long time... it was > > > fully decorated and all... with full festive swing.... lots of > > > people.... i just realised how indifferent i have been to the 'faith' > > > i was born in... my religion.... i am not an aethieist... but i have > > > faith ... though it is not the faith that i saw so many people seeming > > > to have ... i was thinking while there... so many people paying > > > obeisance to the the deity... the Goddess... its hard for me to > > > understand... the feeling towards that Idol.... my moms totally > > > religious... and i DONT get her... what little i can make myself > > > understand is that suppose the Goddess ..the idol is supposed to > > > represent something.. certain values.. is it really the idea behind > > > the deity..why do we needs these anthromorphised Gods... for most > > > though i feel that it is based on fear... but not all of course.... > > > though i am learning to check myself the disdain i used to have for > > > someone totally religious ... devoutly doing all the rituals and > > > fasts.. cause i guess tolerance should be both ways... its a strange > > > feeling standing in a temple... not knowing what to feel and think.... > > > I agree with Molly.. though .. i want to ask... do we scientifically > > > outgrow Faith.. to use scientific here... is it circumstances... i > > > presume we all are born into a faith... i would love to talk to a > > > child of an atheist though... a child who is kept away from faith... > > > some who leave faith after certain tragedies... did they ever have > > > faith.... lots of confused thoughts... > > > > > On Oct 5, 3:53 pm, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I refer to christian mysticism because like you Molly it is the one I > am > > > > most familiar with ,, and everything hinges on trying to understand > what > > > is > > > > said and meant not necessarily what the "churches" want you to accept > as > > > the > > > > truth.. not necessarily leading one to the truth, I believe the > word > > > > christ comes from the greek word meaning "anointed one." that is a > long > > > way > > > > from arriving that Jesus is God.. unfortunately that is where > today's > > > > christianity wants everyone to jump to.. that takes a few more hoops > > > though > > > > I am not willing to arrive at the conclusion he is the son of God. > > > > I do not think you can out grow spirituality as it is a basic part of > > > each > > > > person's being. As for being anointed I think every generation has > its > > > > "anointed" people. The problem comes from the older generation > (church) > > > > does not want them interfering with their cash cow they keep passing > on.. > > > > Allan > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:58 AM, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I think that being faith based may be something we outgrow, like > being > > > > > ego based. Both have a function that we tap from time to time even > > > > > when outgrown because they become the repository of information and > > > > > attribute. That said, I do consider Christian mysticism, simply > > > > > because I have a more thorough understanding of it than any other > form > > > > > of mysticism and live in a society that is more Christian based, > > > > > giving me a way to communicate. The idea that Christ is the > > > > > culmination of all men as the son of God does, I think, have a > related > > > > > concept in every form of mysticism. Our individual view gives us > each > > > > > our own way into the paradox of One. Life may be as simple as a > > > > > "force" that differentiates and unites through order and chaos and > > > > > other such ranges, as RP suggests. Faith, I think, in whatever > form, > > > > > is a system of thought that can lead to a path to understanding. > > > > > > > On Oct 4, 2:49 pm, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > I'm very much in agreement with you, Neil. But, like you, I am > also > > > > > > suspicious of arguments which claim to base themselves on pure > > > > > > "reasonableness." We are much more than just rational > intelligence - > > > > > > you mention "emotional understanding"; we are complex, forever > > > > > > interacting unities - personalities formed out of all sorts of > > > aspects > > > > > > apart from "pure Reason," whatever that may be. > > > > > > > > One of these aspects is our need for meaning-giving narratives, > > > > > > stories, myths to help us structure and find sense and > fulfillment in > > > > > > our lives, both individually and communally. But such narratives > and > > > > > > identity myths are immediately subject to distortion and > > > manipulation. > > > > > > For them to be any way useful they need a constant open dialogue > with > > > > > > sceptics, critics and heretics. Even classical traditional > Christian > > > > > > theology recognised this with the concept of "ecclesia semper > > > > > > reformanda" - more theoretically than practically. And > Dostoevsky's > > > > > > Grand Inquisitor is always present to manipulate and take > control. > > > > > > > > Personally, I "lost" the faith many years ago - and do not miss > it. > > > > > > Yet I still know many great people who are motivated by faith - > and > > > > > > I'm not talking about fundamentalist fruit and nut-cases either. > > > > > > > > On 4 Okt., 17:34, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > oops - drat this laptop! ... was caused over a sandwich. This > > > turned > > > > > > > out to be the Balkan assassination story. My view these days > is > > > that > > > > > > > this war started with the British invasion of Iraq in 1913 and > > > might > > > > > > > be better explained from the point where various imperialist > navies > > > > > > > (British, US, French, German and Japanese) were queuing up in > 1906 > > > off > > > > > > > the Chinese coast (Boxer rebellion etc.) - such analysis is way > > > beyond > > > > > > > school examination 'sound bites'. > > > > > > > > > What I'd like to see is a much more open society that was no > longer > > > > > > > printing myths. I want my beliefs and fellowship based in an > > > accurate > > > > > > > version of what human life is about and the dangers involved in > > > > > > > denying this. I want control to be based in Reason that leaves > > > > > > > emotional understanding in. What I find personally is that I > > > repeat > > > > > > > the mistakes of any elite thinking or practice in being so > > > frustrated > > > > > > > about general ignorance. It's not intellectually honest to > believe > > > in > > > > > > > the will of the majority, though one can make a lesser claim > for a > > > > > > > society in which votes matter than perfection. > > > > > > > > > In the past, religion often had emancipatory aims - much of its > > > > > > > language is about freedom from debt - and I find myself wishing > one > > > > > > > could take part in the fellowship of such religion without > > > corrupting > > > > > > > into all the sacred text belief in god nonsense - just as I > don't > > > mind > > > > > > > feeling proud of my country and its people as long as it's not > on > > > the > > > > > > > basis of jingoism and false history. Much western history is > > > little > > > > > > > more than dross versions of stuff peddled by the Vatican. > > > > > > > > > Today's religion is economics based in imperialist myth - we > hide a > > > > > > > holocaust, indeed deny one - as in the book 'Killing Hope' - > though > > > > > > > one need not focus on the Americans. I feel the truth of this > may > > > be > > > > > > > so bad that figures like Churchill, Bush, Blair and others may > well > > > > > > > have been bag men for international finance and the > preservation of > > > an > > > > > > > ancien regime. I wish in many ways for a religion that stood > up to > > > > > > > this. > > > > > > > > > On Oct 4, 4:07 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The ultimate answer for me is that belief in god lacks > > > intellectual > > > > > > > > honesty. I wouldn't seek any argument on the existence of > god - > > > for > > > > > > > > me an answer either way is a rationalist fantasy - i.e. there > is > > > no > > > > > > > > answer. I reject most of the ideology I was brought up in as > > > based > > > > > in > > > > > > > > fables. The idea of scripture as revelation from god doesn't > > > appeal > > > > > > > > in the slightest. Most of it is wrong and flatly > uninteresting - > > > one > > > > > > > > would expect any such conversation to reveal what we don't > know > > > and > > > > > be > > > > > > > > less obviously made up by human beings. This doesn't make me > > > > > > > > unreligious, but does make me consider religion as > person-made. > > > > > > > > > > Much of the non-religious ideology of my youth fails for > similar > > > > > > > > reasons. I once believed the British Empire was a fine thing > and > > > the > > > > > > > > world wars were the fault of rotten Germans and Japanese. I > now > > > know > > > > > > > > this was because more accurate history was denied me. As a > kid, > > > I > > > > > > > > thought the Opium Wars must have been about our brave Royal > Navy > > > > > > > > chasing drug dealing Chinamen around, and our empire about > > > bringing > > > > > > > > civilisation, fair-play and cricket to the 'undeserving'. I > > > couldn't > > > > > > > > understand why Americans had been so dumb as to reject our > rule. > > > I > > > > > > > > thought our society was broadly fair and you got by on skill > and > > > > > > > > merit. I know this was all bunk. > > > > > > > > > > The essential component of intellectual growth is belonging > to a > > > > > group > > > > > > > > free of infectious diseases - average IQ (however suspect a > > > measure) > > > > > > > > is reduced by this kind of disease. Over the years I've > found > > > some > > > > > > > > solace in science, but it's clear this form of reasoning is > only > > > a > > > > > > > > starting place. We lack any proper account of what science > is, > > > and > > > > > as > > > > > > > > usual the widely held ideas are plain wrong. Science is not > > > value- > > > > > > > > free or intellectually linear and requires massive effort, > > > passion > > > > > and > > > > > > > > some clear-break thinking and a > > > > ... > > > > read more ยป -- ( ) |_D Allan If your life is not going right, try making a left turn life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
