I'd be interested to see that enumerated as well. A frequent meme in Neil's writing is that he doesn't feel most offered solutions have any real value, once percolated down through human greed and incompetence.
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: > Neil how about listing the potential solutions as you see them? I would > apperciate it as it is not something I have a talent for.. > Thank you > Allan > > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 5:47 PM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I think there is always a standing excuse on the greater good - that >> 'irrational capitalism' provides for it better than any rational >> solution. Our thinking is puny at such levels and we have allowed >> over-breeding into poverty just at the point we could have established >> sensible regulation without cruelty. Much of the discussion is >> barking - like Chinese oligarchs saying we will all have to work >> harder and longer when There is actually not that much work to do >> thanks to productivity (other than in making oligarchs richer). >> We talk in moral argument only at simplistic levels - however abstruse >> the language gets and have little grasp of how complex systems work >> and how they might be controlled. Gabby is always right in my view to >> point to the issue that control easily becomes the problem as even >> legitimate authority is used illegitimately. Yet there is always a >> default and this is what the oligarchs rely on. It's almost like >> those pesky downloads that screw your browser settings Allan. >> >> If one takes a concept like 'artifactuality' - roughly those things >> produced as artifacts (which splendidly moves nothing) - we find works >> of art, buildings, tools and so on - the mistake is to see this as >> human and 'unnatural'. We find animals and plants doing the same in >> their terms. I'd even suggest we find molecules doing it, even >> water. It's in nature, so what might this mean? If one hands out >> vaccines like Gates one can hardly say this is wrong and yet medicine >> can be seen as producing poverty through overpopulation. A 'bigger >> cake' meaning disproportionate wealth for a few yet still bigger >> slices for all seems OK - but what if the bigger cake is burning the >> planet (just another case of the tragedy of the Commons)? What if the >> disproportion itself is intolerably cruel or inevitably anti- >> democratic? >> >> We have some potential solutions - but I don't see them in much of our >> dialogue, even in here. >> >> On Oct 21, 5:21 am, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: >> > It seems the term "for the greater good ." disappeared from the language >> > especially from government. >> > Allan >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 2:32 AM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > I'm stuck at another level too Chris - it was always little old >> > > 'critical me' that got funding and such. When going to such things as >> > > university creativity sessions and find them led by some clown with 50 >> > > bright ideas to get the business going what do you do other than toss >> > > the book '!01 Bright Ideas To Get Your Business Going' on the desk and >> > > leave? I found universities not to be centres of excellence but full >> > > of dullards or clown rules that prevented real work. I sometimes find >> > > a few people to work with, have heard the 'Molly experience' and never >> > > seen it do anything but damage - though Molly has an edge I could see >> > > getting through. >> > > With sports teams and some students you have to stop the pre-selection >> > > of defeat - but you also have to spot where the brick walls not to run >> > > at are. >> > > I had a fantastic chance about 15 years back with a firm that wanted >> > > to abolish its organisational structure in favour of project teams, >> > > and go paperless. The top level was a great success and the paperless >> > > thing worked better than I hoped. There were load of positive payoffs >> > > - but huge resentment in the groups doing routine and scut work. All >> > > in all though it was a buzz but a lot of people got left behind. I >> > > have no problem with this kind of efficiency move - but there should >> > > be more consideration of how to work with those who can't cope other >> > > than junking to the reserve army of unemployment. Without going into >> > > detail, this is why I think we need social solutions not individual >> > > ones. And I think the social is too broken to start with letting fear >> > > fall away. >> > >> > > On Oct 20, 10:57 am, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > > "I guess that fear is the load we are experiencing" >> > >> > > > My world changed immeasurably when the fear fell away. >> > >> > > > On Oct 19, 1:25 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > > > I can't take it myself to be honest Chris. Derrida used to say we >> are >> > > > > in spirit positive. In Anglo-Saxon terms he was just a liberal, >> almost >> > > > > priestly as a bloke over a few beers. I was younger then, still >> able >> > > > > to knock things over and feel it was worth the bother. I suspect >> we >> > > > > don't understand "negation" very well. Gabby (bless) always has >> some >> > > > > - or it seems that way (I remember very positive support of me >> some >> > > > > years back) - and the question arising is when this becomes as >> much >> > > > > censorship as all the other stuff we might brand as that. It isn't >> > > > > "negation" or the sting of criticism that really gets to me, more >> > > > > selfish attitudes in what I feel as madness, triumphed as positive >> but >> > > > > perpetual children. I like kids and even childish behaviour as >> > > > > entertainment. I can't stand the failure of education in making a >> > > > > decent society of responsible adults. >> > > > > I've done a lot more than most in playing the game - £7 million in >> > > > > research/project grants doesn't come from admissions projects will >> > > > > fail in the business plan. But the critical eye has to admit the >> > > > > majority fail and I was often signing-off on lies. £9K for >> university >> > > > > tutoring (outside of science and engineering) goes to fund middle- >> > > > > class lifestyles of the university hangers-on not towards the >> > > > > education of the young person. When last full-time, I was >> teaching >> > > > > 100 FTEs at least (200 times £9K = £900K in fees leaving £810K >> after >> > > > > my costs). I could have done a better job for the students with >> > > > > properly organised distance learning and a 'university' organised >> > > > > around local pubs, theartres and sports clubs done through social >> > > > > media - the overhead costed at around £100K (electronic library >> > > > > etc.). A better education with much more opportunity for small >> > > > > business involvement and so on at under a third of the cost and >> one >> > > > > not building onerous debt. What is negative in this? And sadly, >> the >> > > > > answer is easy middle-class incomes. I can go on an explain how >> even >> > > > > these would not be affected as we could expand more practical >> > > > > education and work development. I'm talking here of a more >> social, >> > > > > more tutor supported education better than the expensive, debt- >> > > > > producing fantasy we're forcing kids into. And one with lots of >> local >> > > > > creative possibilities with less bureaucracy and vastly increased >> > > > > 'civic' involvement. >> > > > > You have to 'deconstruct' to get to the above idea - and elsewhere >> in >> > > > > terms of stuff like agricultural and manufacturing productivity we >> > > > > have done this with little thought on the jobs lost by workers - >> > > > > indeed we've run roughshod over 'them'. The point in the negation >> > > > > should be positive - about the use of efficiency for general well- >> > > > > being and the creation of wider prosperity, probably redefined. >> > >> > > > > What's hard, Chris, is facing-up to what life means to most people >> - >> > > > > the economics I've never taught (but colleagues have from a single >> > > > > text book) leads to a few very rich and the rest in >> debt-rent-mortgage >> > > > > peonage and the arms' race. It must be obvious we barely have >> even >> > > > > capitalism. It would be great to be able to ignore politics and >> the >> > > > > status quo, but we need to build so we can. The old phrase from >> the >> > > > > 50's (I only know from reading) was 'structuring freedom'. The >> human >> > > > > population has tripled since I was born (I reject personal, >> intimate >> > > > > responsibility!) - all very 'free' - producing planet burning and >> soon >> > > > > 'competition for air'. Raising questions about how complex >> freedom >> > > > > is. >> > >> > > > > The weight on us - if we think for improved practice - is >> complexity >> > > > > that most use simple Idols on to make their sense. I played rugby >> and >> > > > > was a cop. The whole Bradford Northern front row were less >> > > > > intimidating than the mad munter of some low-life I might nick >> with a >> > > > > bread knife. The rules and structure of the competition allow >> rugby - >> > > > > but what rules and structure would allow a decent society. Not >> every >> > > > > claim can count in trying to do that do should, in principle be >> heard >> > > > > so we don't 'go total' like some Spanish Fascit (fair typo) >> stealing >> > > > > babies from their ideologically unsound mothers. >> > >> > > > > I guess that fear is the load we are experiencing - maybe like >> that of >> > > > > animals in hierarchies under all kinds of complex leader power - >> just >> > > > > look what cockroaches and bees do to members in their 'reaching >> > > > > consensus rules'. Even the really positive is negative - we can >> now >> > > > > support human life without much effort - so why do we need >> poverty? >> > > > > That would destroy the motivation of the rest of us now, wouldn't >> it? >> > > > > The most obvious fact in the world is that most of what we claim >> we >> > > > > want as moral individuals needs a change in what society is and >> what >> > > > > people can aspire to as persons in it - otherwise we head to the >> usual >> > > > > human solution, war. >> > >> > > > > Maybe I should 'out Dilbert' Scott Adams, you do some >> illustrations >> > > > > and pics, and we should watch the fireworks from Bermuda? I like >> the >> > > > > shadows in Bermuda. >> > >> > > > > On Oct 19, 3:56 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> > > > > > I've never had someone so casually create a crushing despair in >> me, >> > > Neil. >> > > > > > Your writing has always affected me greatly, but the sense of >> general >> > > > > > futility that is often expressed weighs a ton. As someone who >> still >> > > holds >> > > > > > out hope for society's betterment, your words often feel like >> > > mountains on >> > > > > > my head.The sense of truth in them, I think, is what gives them >> so >> > > much >> > > > > > weight. >> > >> > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 4:25 PM, archytas <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > > > > > > The smell of authority gets up my nose however disguised Gabby >> - >> > > we've >> > > > > > > just seen an example in rugby union with a Welsh player sent >> off >> > > for a >> > > > > > > decent tackle and then banned for three games to reinforce the >> > > > > > > referee's authority. It all reeks of what people do given >> > > authority. >> > > > > > > Sport hardly matters, but the example is good. I don't know >> what's >> > > > > > > happening in Detroit. I do know that in Spain a ring of >> bastards >> > > > > > > (priests, nuns, doctors) removed 40,000 kids from their >> parents and >> > > > > > > adopted through mass baby trafficking beyond the Fascists. I >> was >> > > > > > > tempted once to become an anarcho-existential organisational >> > > > > > > practitioner and break some windows from the inside, but >> somehow >> > > > > > > jargon remains with the same smell. >> > > > > > > Molly's got a point - the problem is that words so rarely >> match >> > > what >> > > > > > > happens. The gadfly of irony loses its sting too,much as >> > > increasing >> > > > > > > lexicon (equafinality, artifactuality etc.) ... and paradigms >> of >> > > > > > > synergy fade in the dust of asset strippers. >> > >> > > > > > > So where are the solutions we might express? >> > >> > > > > > > On Oct 18, 8:15 pm, gabbydott <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > > > > > > Puh, this is the flowery version of "I am against dualism" >> > > (compare: All >> > > > > > > > power plays are based in these memes because they require >> > > opposition), >> > > > > > > which >> > > > > > > > is understandable if the writer gets payed by the line. >> Whereby >> > > the scent >> > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > power being related to hierarchies is decently overtoned, >> now >> > > isn't that >> > > > > > > > lovely. No mod here has the power over the ban button, this >> is >> > > me here >> > > > > > > > trolling and spreading an unpleasant odor. Puh, could >> someone >> > > please >> > > > > > > > let in some fresh air? >> > >> > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Molly <[email protected] >> > >> > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > Power relations work only in a group with leadership who's >> > > view is >> > > > > > > > > based on power and the idea that "i" or "we" can have more >> or >> > > less >> > > > > > > > > than >> > >> > ... >> > >> > read more » > > > > > -- > ( > ) > |_D Allan > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living. > > >
