Yep, that's where I see IT having accepted their position too. On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 8:13 AM, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote:
> In point 11 *It *seems the corporations and the people who lead them are > already social paths > Allan > > > On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 7:11 AM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > >> What strikes me on public dialogue is that we get a lot of opposing >> views put forward that are all based in ideology that can be stripped >> so bare as to be embarrassing. This holds true for political-economic >> stuff and many factual programmes on history -we still get 'Kings and >> Queens' and battles with little focus on how what democracy we have >> came about - amazingly,given much focus on the rich, we get little >> idea of how wealth is acquired and distributed. Moral discussion >> rarely gets in deep and there is massive bias towards received wisdom >> and language. Journalism is stuck in value from Victorian America on >> 'objectivity' - frankly worlds away from what can be justified in >> critical thought. In all their 'balance' they have failed to report on >> debt and wage decimation for 20 years. war reporting has been a >> complete sell-out since The Falklands Fiasco. In reporting the >> closure of fifty UK pubs a week, no mention was made of the fact that >> there was no longer any money in the hands of those who used to use >> them - in 1980 the bottom 50% had 14% of the country's liquid assets - >> now it's less than 1% - and clearly why businesses reliant on it have >> shut. >> >> Given that the cost of manufacturing in most products we buy is 10-15% >> it's hard to see the business case for much 'offshoring' and there has >> never been a case of us to decimate manufacturing other than for the >> ideological right wanting to kill off unions and gerrymander >> electorates. >> >> The positives we need to get to include (tomorrow): >> 1.bringing back manufacturing >> 2.limited debt jubilee >> 3. return to primitive banking >> 4. new greener products - we should aim to cut all domestic energy >> needs by 70% >> 5. bring in international/national service for all across US and >> Europe to abolish youth unemployment and long-term unemployment >> 6. raise wages >> 7. cap high earnings and bring in wealth taxes that ensure capital is >> invested >> 8.hang the next bankster who threatens the treason of selling out to >> some tax haven >> 9. insist on transparent accounting on a global basis (I teach the >> stuff and can no longer make sense of balance sheets) >> 10. no more derivatives >> 11. start looking for massive efficiency savings in new ways that >> don't turn corporations into sociopaths. >> 12. establish world-wide quality of working life standards and give >> the kind of support to all that leads to population control (which >> includes stopping the fear your kids are so likely to die you need to >> have loads). >> 13. stop money controlling politics - partly by ensuring it isn't to >> spare for this kind of influence. >> 14. encourage genuine self-reliance through more work-based learning. >> 15. make politicians meet in public (Internet broadcast) not in secret >> - and get on with a genuine peace that will entail getting rid of >> rougue states and medievalist clowns >> >> Whatever the list we need to decide it and not allow the brush off >> that we can't afford it. We can. What we can't afford is for it to >> turn into some centralised communism or be taken over by current >> centralised money. >> >> On Nov 7, 1:26 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> > I share Pat's 'tears'. In science one can pull off the positive >> > eliminations and work with what's left. In the social this is hardly >> > possible without moving into some solipsist fantasy as in Descartes or >> > Ayn Rand's "objectivism". The farce in logical positivism is that of >> > the return of desire. In attempting to extirpate system building >> > (metaphysics) one is really building another. 7 books may have been >> > written by Plato on how to stave off elite corruption - but of course >> > he was crating an elite that would be corrupted as the Democracy was >> > corrupted around him,nearly always at war. >> > Inmy conception we are always working with the Undead memes of the >> > past and a way forward is to bring them to light.I at least partly >> > think my years in study (mostly teaching and research) have led to me >> > some of the right places but one always faces the reality James >> > explains a bit above. >> > My frustration with philosophy is this - it relies on abilities few >> > have and over time has become a pastime for these few. Almost >> > everything in academe turns to this. >> > In one of those weird turns, had the new inheritance laws for royal >> > succession just brought in been around 200 years ago, the world wars >> > may not have happened because the king of England would have been >> > Germany's Kaiser. I suspect imperialism would have had its way >> > anyway, but some odd turn may lead us away from the current abyss. >> > OccupyX is at least getting at old left-right divides. >> > >> > On Nov 5, 8:59 pm, James Lynch <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 11:17 AM, Pat <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> > > > On Oct 27, 6:43 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > >> The communist angle always makes me smirk Pat. The original >> written >> > > >> form was elite (Plato) and aimed at cutting the temptations of >> > > >> corruption,and the American anti-commie stuff always failed to >> reflect >> > > >> on itself as dire ideology. These days we have 'loop theories' >> that >> > > >> relish both capitalism and communism in some kind of balance - but >> in >> > > >> the end I just think we are at a past sell by date on both. I >> worked >> > > >> for Moldovan 'wages' (mostly food and board) when I lectured there >> - >> > > >> three weeks worth more or less paid my train fare from the >> airport. I >> > > >> loved my days in the fields, mostly fixing machinery with parts >> bought >> > > >> with my university salary. I'd be closer to Allan on the state of >> > > >> play than Rigsy. We have made casual labouring much more difficult >> > > >> for our own people to do. We could do something around such work, >> but >> > > >> the problem is it's so much cheaper to organise around migrant >> labour. >> > >> > > > Cheaper, yes; exploitation, equally yes. Doesn't the 'West' just >> love >> > > > to exploit those who it deems of less worth and then eke every last >> > > > scrap of worth out of them? Of course, all in the name of 'better'. >> > > > Sometimes, it makes me feel phyisically ill to think I, in some >> third- >> > > > party manner, benefit from such ill use of human resources. But one >> > > > man can't stop it; it takes a mindset and paradigm shift to occur in >> > > > the minds of, at least, 1% of the human population--and that's, now, >> > > > roughly 70 million!! >> > >> > > Waste is quite a dilemma, on one hand you can propel industry capital >> > > but on the other is negligent arrogance in taking for granted what >> > > resources are consumed. Human beings seem to be regenerative, in we >> > > strive to prosper, but also rationally degenerate in that we are >> > > geared toward doing so in an authentic environment where leaders arise >> > > by merit, what is deemed worthy of admiration and emulation. The >> > > degenerate part comes into play where we are willing to suppress all >> > > our instincts to persist in degenerate environments created leaders we >> > > should use for one thing but fail to give the cold shoulder in other >> > > matters. I would equate much of today's figureheads as ombudsmen >> > > running the purchasing dept with no concept of TCO- run into Best Buy >> > > and grab the flashiest piece of hardware with no reference to field >> > > experts, reliability reviews, and barely a clue what the office needs >> > > from a given product. It is obvious that popularity is not a marker of >> > > a productive and healthy selection process. We need to devise >> > > mechanisms for progress and eliminate the weak links, but this is no >> > > easy task. What is it about the 1% that will get this off the ground I >> > > wonder, because I've had similar strategic ideas but it always quickly >> > > devolves in my mind into thousands of dilemmas. Unless of course they >> > > know, understand and believe- but what- that is the question, no? >> > >> > > >> On Oct 27, 3:50 pm, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > >> > On Oct 24, 7:37 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > There was philosophy once called logical positivism. \\it's >> people >> > > >> > > were well-intentioned, like Russell and Carnap. If you have a >> few >> > > >> > > hours to spare I could explain its basics - in the end it got >> so >> > > >> > > concerned with words they were all that was left. Strangely >> it was >> > > >> > > accused of being crude in its use of brute fact. >> > >> > > >> > My sister was/is a fan of Logical Positivism. It certainly >> tried; >> > > >> > but, as you say, it got caught up in terminology so much so that >> it >> > > >> > found that it didn't have the language to discuss its own topics. >> > > >> > Thus, eventually becoming positively, logically negated. Isn't >> it >> > > >> > ironic...don't you think? >> > >> > > >> > > The problem as I see it is that we want democracy but have not >> found a >> > > >> > > way to accept its biggest flaw - that of decisions made >> through the >> > > >> > > sway of ignorance, and further problems with the corruption of >> > > >> > > representatives. Attempts at a fix of this in perfection are >> doomed >> > > >> > > or the equivalent of fiddling while Rome burns. >> > >> > > >> > The answer there is, as it has always been: offering a REAL >> education >> > > >> > to the next generation. >> > >> > > >> > > One might try to produce communication free of ideology and >> this let >> > > >> > > Reason alone have power (Habermas) - but as far as I can see >> this >> > > >> > > never works - and Habermas only suggests his 'ideal speech >> situation' >> > > >> > > as an ideal type (following Weber). >> > >> > > >> > The problem there is that most people don't see their own biases >> and, >> > > >> > therefore, pass on those ideologies anyway--sometimes without >> ever >> > > >> > seeing that truth. >> > >> > > >> > > The best positive I can reach is that we could change our >> material >> > > >> > > conditions to produce less discontent. To get to an >> understanding of >> > > >> > > this we need to agree on some basic facts - and the move >> towards these >> > > >> > > is critical. People as old as Orn and myself can remember >> when it was >> > > >> > > possible for most in the West to get somewhere near this >> because there >> > > >> > > were plenty of well paid jobs about. Oversimplifying a lot >> this is >> > > >> > > not now the case and we need to establish what the new >> conditions are. >> > >> > > >> > The problem there is that there is a veritable army of >> economists and >> > > >> > historians trying to prevent you/us from discovering the truth >> OF our >> > > >> > situation out of THEIR fear that, once we discover the truth, we >> will >> > > >> > want, demand and deserve better leadership. The result is >> worldwide >> > > >> > revolution, which, as we can all see, could get very bloody >> indeed. >> > > >> > But, do we hide behind ignorance or maintain ignorance in order >> to >> > > >> > avoid revolution out of the fear of bloodshed? Revolution and >> change >> > > >> > require courage. Is humanity Brave enough FOR a New World? >> > >> > > >> > > Productivity is vastly enhanced from the times in which our >> work >> > > >> > > ethics arose. My guess is we could get by quite nicely on a >> 30hr >> > > >> > > working week and a 40 week year with retirement at 60 whilst >> > > >> > > increasing current production. I am only guessing, but the >> reason I >> > > >> > > have to guess is odd. Why don't we know? There are perhaps a >> dozen >> > > >> > > vital areas like this to which we have no accepted answers. >> > >> > > >> > I've even thought of changing to a 5-day week in which we work 3 >> days >> > > >> > and are off 2 days. 365 is far more divisible by 5 than it is 7 >> and >> > > >> > it is only a religious concept that binds us to a 7-day week. >> > >> > > >> > > The positive moves are all about establishing facts and the >> first of >> > > >> > > these has to be an explanation of why we are so bad at this and >> > > >> > > whether new technology can help break the 'spell'. Here, the >> paradox >> > > >> > > is we need the technology to start working to this end with >> most >> > > >> > > people not able to understand why and an existing situation in >> which >> > > >> > > dominant education and media will try to pervert any attempts. >> > >> > > >> > Yup. Well spotted!! And not so easily avoided. Especially when >> there >> > > >> > is a 'sea of troubles' to oppose before we could end them. >> > >> > > >> > > Many are discussing these issues in great detail. I'm sure a >> few of >> > > >> > > us could put a '101' together from Internet sources. >> Semiotics is a >> > > >> > > key discipline in the critique (Michael Betancourt), as is >> > > >> > > environmental science (as opposed to the Kymer Vert) and most >> > > >> > > economics that you don't get on Fox and the increasingly dumb >> BBC >> > > >> > > (Steve Keen) One can even argue the Tea Party and OccupyX have >> > > >> > > similar protest issues. You can get a radical smear of this >> on the >> > > >> > > Keiser Report (courtesy on Russia Today). >> > >> > > >> > > The aim is already worked out - a return to economies with a >> link >> > > >> > > between toil (labour value) and reward and money in people's >> hands, >> > > >> > > not hoarded by an elite or subject to their looting- and >> meaningful >> > > >> > > democracy. >> > >> > > >> > AND making that not sound too much like the communism that it is. >> > > >> > LOL!! I only say that because of the massive fear of communism >> by >> > > >> > America due to its ignorance OF it. People... >> > >> > read more ยป > > > > > -- > ( > ) > |_D Allan > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living. > > >
