The technological point Allan would be in terms of the facts even a few people like us who know each other would accept and "know" via database - it's very hard to explain. Currently we are generally in the state you suggest, though exceptionally skilled in harmlessness.
On Jan 16, 7:05 am, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: > Personally Neil I do not think the four of you would be capable of > making that type of evaluation. > No offence taken ... every one listed is as bigoted to their own > view as I am.. (",) > Allan > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 12:51 AM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > I'm a very woolly thinker - and part of the technology I want to see > > would entail a bunch of us - say me, rigs, Gabs and James - being able > > to decide on whether the public or private sector is 'better' (I > > suspect we'd all say this depends on circumstances) without making the > > question into some ideological contest - and then on to the world more > > generally. I've no doubt we could all give examples and counter- > > examples and suspect we'd find some consensus on not really being very > > interested. What I really wonder is why such matters are contested > > ideologically rather than being subject to transparent record. > > > On Jan 15, 10:32 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Didn't know you were a Papist rigs! Which changes about nothing - I > >> was dragged up Proddy until I got Dad to write a note to school > >> excusing me RE. I did my maths and English homework in the classes - > >> still took the exams and came top twice - which rather suggests how > >> useless classrooms can be. I think a great deal is recoverable from > >> religion concerning practical democracy and the loss of decency and > >> organic solidarity. > >> I've been reading a lot of academic material on banking systems for > >> some lectures, Most tell the story that what has been done since the > >> crash have really done nothing - there's one > >> athttp://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2132152(pdf > >> downloads if anyone is interested) - and reading it is typically > >> bleak. I've stopped the reading, partly because I have enough, but > >> more because I'm depressed by how powerless it makes me feel. Rosanne > >> Barr seemed the best presidential candidate to me. We need to get > >> back to farming, building and making the planet a sensible collective. > > >> We used to try to teach the logic underlying various discipline - > >> typically through learning artificial languages that demonstrate > >> ambiguity lies in even simple constructs in ordinary languages. > >> Tarski was usually key. One can dream of a machine that would do this > >> in real time as politicians speak - but only dream. One can end up in > >> such stuff as Chu sets - sadly not as easy as Casey Jones. What I > >> could see in near-term would be a database that worked in near real- > >> time that immediately produced facts that made politician's statements > >> as ambiguous as they really are factually and identified rhetorical > >> tricks as they spoke. Academic work in this area like discourse > >> analysis is painfully slow. > > >> Tony Blair was a good orator - but now he looks the paradigm case of > >> 'how do you know this man is lying - because his lips are moving' > >> along with Nixon. The current technology is some combination of > >> oratory, rhetoric and infotainment - perhaps even combined with > >> education as discipline. I would want a technology that was very > >> different, more transparent and honest - and I would see machine > >> thinking as part of it all - in some areas of science we are fairly > >> sure the machines are smarter than us already. I can think up some > >> kind of 'mind-repository' as science fiction - Hawking is saying > >> biological intelligence may be at the end of its evolutionary span. > >> The Frankenstein and totalitarian elements always raise their heads - > >> of course. > > >> Gordon Brown - the idiot who sold our gold reserves - used to say 'we > >> must be proud of our British heritage' - but such is never said in > >> the spirit of analysis of the good and the disasters. I'm pretty sure > >> machines and software could show all our politicians now contest in > >> such actually meaningless drivel. Some of us believe this already. I > >> wonder if technology exposing such would generate space for the real > >> dialogue? > > >> On 15 Jan, 12:14, rigs <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > It appears chimps are willing to share a banana fairly and we are > >> > closely related- it's a start. (NPR or BBC) But also heard farmland > >> > was selling for $10,000. an acre and discouraging young independent > >> > farmers (which will lead to more agribusiness swallowing up the > >> > land).//There is a very long history promoting power and wealth- as a > >> > sign of worldly success and divine favor- not sure if there is any way > >> > to abolish that notion- well illustrated by the top tiers of > >> > socialists and communists- even religious groups.// To be a > >> > conservative may mean you have something to conserve (from an old > >> > deceased friend); conservatives reward themselves with their own > >> > efforts while liberals reward everyone with other people's efforts > >> > (thoughts while cooking-rigs). Politicians make endless promises to > >> > the poor and middle class in order to secure their votes and stay in > >> > office since they(politicians) become unfit for work in the real > >> > world.//I think I wanted to be a good person rather than a rich person > >> > but I was brainwashed by Catholicism...wasn't I?// > > >> > On Jan 14, 9:21 pm, James <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > There are a number of trade routes built into the rewards system > >> > > though, > >> > > for example a simple formula might be: > > >> > > Cities favor growth of tax base and expansion, attraction of > >> > > prospective > >> > > citizens and businesses might favor a financial institution over a > >> > > private home builder, the contractor may get tax breaks through tricks > >> > > between the bank and taxing authorities to greatly increase profits for > >> > > everyone except the buyer. The financial institution rewards > >> > > contractors > >> > > and gains from relationships with all three and everyone has their > >> > > hands > >> > > in the others' pocket making gains from the buyer. The whole system is > >> > > in the rewards game and it is designed to favor those who can leverage > >> > > scale and the promise of a shared economic gain. > > >> > > My thinking is very in line with Andrew's on establishing a higher > >> > > baseline, I think it would be a worthwhile investment in humanity. But > >> > > it doesn't sound probable as long as we are addicted to perpetual > >> > > growth > >> > > schemes that rely on massive excess capacity and waste to prop up an > >> > > increasingly top heavy infrastructure. > > >> > > Someone once said that an empty stomach doesn't make the best advisor > >> > > for the future (or similarly rather). I think that cuts right to Neil's > >> > > second brain (the enteric nervous system) that drives an an organism > >> > > with primal survival motives, and that is the manipulation in play, I > >> > > cannot imagine the promise of democracy seeing the light of day while > >> > > higher cognitive functions such as navigating complex multidimensional > >> > > environments (societies/states) to solve complex sociological > >> > > challenges > >> > > (lest we believe this is just about money, or at all?!) toward mutually > >> > > beneficial outcomes. Unless I was blinded by the pie in the sky I had > >> > > something along the lines of a just, healthy and productive society in > >> > > mind when first learning about democracy. > > >> > > What I see is a large part of people's lives driven by fear, that > >> > > primal > >> > > second brain. I think it should piss us off that we could be far more > >> > > productive if someone cared to put the infrastructure in place for our > >> > > outputs to be recycled back into society to a larger and more integral > >> > > extent, from lack of imagination and dominance of a culture of usury > >> > > and > >> > > isolation. We can invent money but not cure poverty? Who is driving the > >> > > boat? (oh democracy, hmm).. > > >> > > Distribution of prestige and privilege in our society is as powerful > >> > > today as it has been for a long time, how we pursue that I think will > >> > > determine whether we fulfill the promise of democracy. The society we > >> > > engineer will determine whether the activities of citizens resemble > >> > > intelligent, caring, inspired beings or a mound of parasites and > >> > > resource aggregating automata. Pardon the crude reductionism to an > >> > > absurd dichotomy. > > >> > > The possibility of a better world, is it armament enough? Takes more > >> > > than imagination, but really, what is it that separates us from the > >> > > other animals?! > > >> > > On 1/14/2013 9:43 AM, archytas wrote: > > >> > > > In HE in the UK state school students marginally outperform those > >> > > > from > >> > > > private education - until they enter the job market. Social mobility > >> > > > between income groups has fallen substantially across the west. We > >> > > > have lost a grip on the economic dynamic. Many economists believed > >> > > > the rentier part of capitalism would wither away - much as Marx > >> > > > thought the State would. What interests me is that we end up with > >> > > > the > >> > > > 'socialist state' either through 'revolution' or via a financial > >> > > > system stacked in favour of sending money to the very rich who form a > >> > > > politburo of their own. My guess is we are trapped because we can't > >> > > > change financialism and attitudes to work - through an underlying > >> > > > fear > >> > > > of freedom and lack of recognition this has to be structured in such > >> > > > a > >> > > > way there is no need to think much about it once we have something > >> > > > decent in place. > > >> > > > On Jan 13, 2:01 pm, rigs<[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> Regard the lilies of the field... > > >> > > >> In fairness, the US has its share/history of ex-pats. > > >> > > >> Debt has a greater earning potential than savings for financial > >> > > >> instiutions. Living beyond one's means is promoted in various ways. > >> > > >> America is the land of re-invention (social and > > ... > > read more » --
