Computing has brought about changes in maths on grounds of speed in calculation that humans can't achieve in lifetimes - patterns appear in massive iterations we simply don't have time to do. I don't have much problem with this if, say, it lets us devise flight plans to Mars. They are increasingly used to have information first, perhaps like someone using a telescope to spot which ship is coming home in order to unload what stock of goods one has while prices are still high before its goods are docked. I doubt the entire use of the technology in economics. In some areas of science we are not sure what the computers are telling us and they appear to be "thinking".I have taught many people to drive spreadsheets and databases - though few really learn to manipulate new questions into them or design useful reporting from them. Rigs hits one of the nails of democracy on the head and Andrew drives in another. Unlike Gabby I tend to view faith as a weakness. The vinegar and oil approach is probably cast as incommensurability in philosophy - though combined as salad dressing Andrew's meat is my poison. I suspect much allegedly incommensurate is merely incompatible due to definition. Chemists could no doubt produce a solution with both oil and vinegar in it. Wiles' solution to Fermat's last theorem bridges modular and elliptic equations and Sneed and Ludwig have used set theory to show compatibility between older and modern physics (scientists mostly believed this anyway).
The question is whether there is something we can apply to the sad state of democracy that keeps the egalitarianism better than our very peculiar voting systems. If we had an "argument machine" we might be able t get past Crusade/Jihad, Sunni/Shia, Catholic/Protestant, Hindi/ Muslim and so on - and get into what is common exploitation on all sides - the human aspects rigs points out - and to change to the more positive ones. I may even share (something like) Gabby's 'frustration' with agnostics - though an explication of this n both sides would be long. This is tough territory - and very unlike the spiv Blair uttering 'education, education, education' (something I first heard in East Germany) and the ease with which we are gulled by such blandishments with no thought of how we can actually create graduate jobs 50:50 and what such a society would be. We need to know more about what buttons the likes of Blair and adverts push. I suspect part of the answer would be the creation of technology to support a level playing field - but as I write this I'm fairly sure we are being warmed up for war (it's a bit like Jung's dream). On Jan 18, 11:11 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > Vinegar and oil are prime reasons I don't order salad when out - hate > them both! I agree entirely with Gabby on "political argument" and > would say in addition academic argument can be as bad and the majority > of it is. When asked most people say they vote on the economy - when > further asked what the economy is they are clueless. One of us at > least will need a steel claw to make a success of Al's lair and our > 'freedom through world domination' scheme. > > On Jan 18, 3:46 pm, andrew vecsey <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Faith and reason, like vinegar and oil (my favorite salad dressing) ,go > > together and complement each other really well. Like the bible teaches, the > > knowledge of good and evil or technology is a double edged sword. You can > > not have one without the other. Like playing with matches, it is not > > recommended for children. As for teaching morals, I do not think it can be > > taught by teachers. Education and democracy if used morally can and does > > fill empty bellies.I agree with you Rigs about democracy. Democracy as we > > have it in all democratic countries (except Switzerland) lasts only for a > > day every 4 or 5 years when we elect representatives with meaningless > > promises to represent us. > > > On Friday, January 18, 2013 12:54:01 PM UTC+1, rigs wrote: > > > > Faith and Reason are like vinegar and oil. The Enlightenment has > > > brought us hence- the new Dark Ages? Technology is not a solution > > > because it can be corrupted. I have much in common with a Roman matron > > > of the 4th C. as I watch/read of the new barbarians. My modern > > > conveniences are simply mechanical slaves. It does little good to > > > teach ethics/morals when other parts of our supposed united world are > > > not in sync. Education/democracy will not fill an empty belly or > > > replenish wasted croplands and raw materials. Throwing money at > > > unstable countries will not rescue us or them (Egypt) nor will > > > allowing disasters to take their course win us friends (Syria). > > > Democracy has become a bloated centralized authority so the political > > > differences are meaningless. The patterns of human history have > > > changed very little, unfortunately- it still remains about greed, > > > power and hubris. > > > > On Jan 17, 7:59 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Kaggle is also up and running, apparently producing better than expert > > > > results from data crunching. The project, whether a Tower of Babel > > > > confronting god or not, is underway. > > > > > On Jan 18, 12:22 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > At last we discover the lair from which you intend to launch 'Dr No' > > > > > plans Al! > > > > > > One can argue that democracy already uses a 'non-argument technology' > > > > > called voting. > > > > > > In many respects Allan is right on argument being about reinforcing an > > > > > individual's point of view. > > > > > > Studies of the Internet show the most likely reaction to facts is > > > > > backfire as people dig in on their original position. > > > > > > Does anyone know 'where' human decision-making takes place - much > > > > > modern testing indicates it comes before anything rational (the social > > > > > animal thesis). Adverts are highly irrational, political bull > > > > > simplistic and often not true - FDR matched others in rhetoric on not > > > > > letting the English fight to the last American to get elected. Would > > > > > any of us want to claim how WW2 came about - I suspect not - but even > > > > > what we might know is likely more factual than those who think the > > > > > Soviets were on the other side. Universal education hasn't helped > > > > > much on fact bases in individuals. > > > > > > One has to suspect if we could build a bulldung detector it wouldn't > > > > > switch off until after we shot the last politician and detergent > > > > > salesman. I don't expect we can build one. Plato's suggested > > > > > technology was to train Guardians - I'd prefer something much less > > > > > elitist and socially constructed. > > > > > > Currently, we don't even have reliable voice to text - but statistical > > > > > engines are reliable in translation. There are many problems - not > > > > > least on how a trustworthy database could be formed and work (even the > > > > > history of forensic science is rather shameful - certainly a Curate's > > > > > Egg). Rudimentary machines that outperform humans are already with us > > > > > - the process I'm thinking about is already under way. There is > > > > > already a wide literature - Lyotard's 'The Postmodern Condition: a > > > > > report on knowledge' was about it. The technology could be > > > > > emancipatory - but is currently developed largely for competitive > > > > > advantage. > > > > > > On Jan 17, 6:15 pm, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > under threat of a sawed off shoot gun Allan bows low and retreats to > > > > > > his monastery on Skellig Michael. > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 7:06 PM, archytas <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I'm not talking about transhumanism - which might be critiqued as: > > > > > > > > Some secular humanists conceive transhumanism as an offspring of > > > the > > > > > > > humanist freethought movement and argue that transhumanists differ > > > > > > > from the humanist mainstream by having a specific focus on > > > > > > > technological approaches to resolving human concerns (i.e. > > > > > > > technocentrism) and on the issue of mortality.[40] However, other > > > > > > > progressives have argued that posthumanism, whether it be its > > > > > > > philosophical or activist forms, amount to a shift away from > > > concerns > > > > > > > about social justice, from the reform of human institutions and > > > from > > > > > > > other Enlightenment preoccupations, toward narcissistic longings > > > for a > > > > > > > transcendence of the human body in quest of more exquisite ways of > > > > > > > being.[41] In this view, transhumanism is abandoning the goals of > > > > > > > humanism, the Enlightenment, and progressive politics (Wiki) > > > > > > > > but about identifying why we have made some progress but not very > > > much > > > > > > > towards secure living in freedom. I suspect we are much less > > > distinct > > > > > > > from animals than in Gabby's religious view, much less involved in > > > > > > > 'logical' argument than we know (and generally have less training > > > in > > > > > > > it than soccer) and may be disabled from democracy by a technology > > > we > > > > > > > could fix (imperfectly would do) if we could really debate what it > > > is. > > > > > > > > On 17 Jan, 17:48, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > >> I'd add the situation is so complex even a metaphor like driving > > > a car > > > > > > >> is replete with problems - car driving is part of planet burning, > > > I > > > > > > >> once built a kit car but this doesn't make me a 'better' driver > > > than > > > > > > >> Stirling Moss, cars kill etc. > > > > > > > >> Much decision-making is already automated by technology in the > > > sense > > > > > > >> of the term I mean. High frequency trading is an example and is > > > very > > > > > > >> much subject to cheating and unfair advantage by those in control > > > of > > > > > > >> the technology (the general scam is front-running). > > > > > > > >> Profit and loss decision-making across the world leaves out many > > > items > > > > > > >> most of us would consider vital such as the atrocities > > > perpetrated on > > > > > > >> the lives of people around mines - etc. ad nauseum - these > > > > > > >> 'externalities' could be subject to the accounting processes. > > > > > > > >> I'm only suggesting we can get beyond moral wittering - initially > > > in > > > > > > >> thought experiment - and maybe find new ground that would be > > > > > > >> actionable rather than chattering-class stuff. In the current > > > > > > >> technology those in control take huge rents and promise trickle > > > down. > > > > > > >> Nearly all of us despise centralised control as in the > > > Sino-Soviet > > > > > > >> experiments (probably based on the Domesday Book) - yet 'money' > > > > > > >> centralises. I often think leaving democracy to argument is like > > > > > > >> being told we can put up ourselves against Manchester United and > > > let > > > > > > >> football decide out fate! {We might turn up with 13 decent > > > amateurs > > > > > > >> and beat them by changing the goal-posts to rugby league football > > > - or > > > > > > >> Allan might keep his shotgun on them while rigs walked in our > > > winning > > > > > > >> goals}. > > > > > > > >> Shotgun (Whilst I liked rigs' metaphor) and god-contest threats > > > seem a > > > > > > >> lot more violent than the logicians to me at this point. > > > > > > > >> On 17 Jan, 16:47, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > I rode shotgun in our last civil war Gabby. I see little in > > > 'god > > > > > > >> > arguments' other than chronic factionalism and can no longer > > > laugh at > > > > > > >> > Lutherian rants emanating from Belfast. There is something > > > else in > > > > > > >> > religion and I don't agree with those like Dawkins who make > > > fortunes > > > > > > >> > replacing it with science that may as well be 'Latin mass' in > > > general > > > > > > >> > understanding. I'd be happy enough to ride in this context > > > with Allan > > > > > > >> > against the road agents - though I for one would need > > > comfortable > > > > > > >> > suspension and I don't travel well. > > > > > > > >> > God clearly doesn't work once in factional human hands - like > > > Gabby I > > > > > > >> > prefer direct appeal to him/her/it - but even Protestantism is > > > led, > > > > > > >> > collective and so on. Quite how the Protestant tossers who > > > started > > > > > > >> > shooting into Catholic gatherings (and so on) in Northern > > > Ireland > > > > > > >> > could justify themselves with a loving god > > ... > > read more » --
