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On Monday, October 13, 2014 12:27:43 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote:
>
> Churches are for basically for the masses .. There is a basic need to
> believe or explain the unknown. Transition into spirituality does not take
> much.
>
> Common religious views are a starting point from which to build ones
> spiritual view and experience. Within Catholicism there are basically 3
> levels of spirituality. The first level , believe God is real go to church
> follow the rules. The second level is where people become aware of the
> presence of God, with him becoming a major part of their lives, with
> experiences like Molly spoke of not being uncommon. Theses experiences
> being a driving force. The Third level the roll of the church changes from
> spiritual guide to one of an observer and scribe. At this level these
> people are no longer the ' churches ' problem but that of God. The official
> church very much likes these people as part of the church, providing
> assistance when possible.
> Many centuries of observation allows the church to easily recognize the
> different levels. It really is an interesting source of study.
> The English are among the greatest slavers in the world.. Followed closely
> by islam.
>
> Allan
> Living Soul
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: archytas <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 4:18 PM
> Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion
>
> I've done much of the magic in the secret society bit (in what was once
> Zaire). My friend (a tribal chief) and I were able to repeat the magic in
> my university office. Sadly, I get rather the reverse experience of Molly
> in our churches. Jean-Claude was a thorough-going Marxist, though detested
> the Lenin-Mao lines. I tend to anarchist-mutualism myself and am never
> sure about Molly's higher plane - my sense is it emerges from the material
> conditions of possibility. Sleeping near ants is not recommended.
>
> I was thinking of the potentials of religion to free us from biological
> structuration, perhaps in the sense of a poison-cure. It has both higher
> plane experience and chronic rationalisation - the latter, say, in jihad,
> crusades and the ant-like 'let's kill the Yazidi and steal their women' (or
> Numbers 31). Many of our terms have this pharmikon status, though we allow
> them to dominate in 'good' form - education, government, freedom ...
>
> John Brown is often presented as a deluded religionist, but at least
> wasn't talking western philosophy at the top table of a slave economy.
> Religion these days seems silent on material matters.
>
> On Monday, 13 October 2014 14:16:26 UTC+1, Molly wrote:
>>
>> I suppose that it does provide a place to hide in community from the
>> mundane and economic realities of the lower and middle classes if one is
>> necessary. I've always found a church community to provide its own
>> cultural limitations based on what all human groups offer, and not much
>> insight into faith or support in crisis of faith. At the head of each
>> church is a human being, struggling as we all do to make sense of it all.
>> The tone of this culture depends invariable on the tone of the leader and
>> they deviate more or less from the greater church dictates. Mass itself is
>> little more than a ritual although once understood as a process to higher
>> consciousness, can take you there, I've experienced it, and not just in a
>> Catholic mass. Participating tribal ritual drumming can lead to ecstasies.
>> Much if not all of this is lost on most congregations, in my experience.
>>
>> On Monday, October 13, 2014 7:03:02 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote:
>>>
>>> Many of our terms for freedom have religious origin in the rough phrase
>>> 'freedom from debt' - more and much wider than than Xtian kicking over the
>>> tables of the money-lenders. There have been many debt jubilees in
>>> history, often on the death of a 'king'. Debt slavery is and has been much
>>> wider in human communities than most seem to know. We are not widely
>>> informed on biology and anthropology in this regard. Religion can raise
>>> the best and worst in us. Much of it raises the notion of adherents as
>>> some kind of chosen people, sometimes restricted to the in-group blood
>>> line. The Yazidi are such an example.
>>>
>>> Chimps seem to have a form of 'religion' connected with the seasons - as
>>> many of our belief systems. I saw footage of some southeast Asian spiders
>>> this morning - they lay eggs in a central tower surrounded by a henge -
>>> immediately bringing Stonehenge to my mind, though they don't hack stones
>>> to shape. Religion raises Facil's 'we might both (all) be wrong' phrase to
>>> my mind, something often missing in our argument despite knowledge that we
>>> can make many equally powerful arguments about the same stuff (Sextus
>>> Empiricus). To judge between arguments we need something mystical
>>> (religious). I say this as a scientist knowing magic wands don't work.
>>> Religion could be rebellion, a postmodern moment, oversimplifying to the
>>> extreme, of incredulity towards metanarratives like government, law and
>>> economics - a dreamtime against material and spiritual debt-rules.
>>>
>>> Black holes have recently become 'grey', but dreamtime might challenge
>>> the geometry we use. Global warming and much else on pollution challenges
>>> us to think 'This Changes Everything' (Naomi Klein) - the economics of 'we
>>> can never afford to do the right things' in my view. So what does religion
>>> offer on the postmodern moment of rebellion?
>>>
>> --
>
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