That would be worth believing in Allan. It's hard to work out what rebellion is. I might break into the Freeze art sales event in London and smash up one of Facil's exhibits in the first of my series of Vandal Art. This might, in fact, merely be a marketing prank to draw attention to the Facilitator and increase the price of his stuff.
I've been looking into a weeding robot of late. Brilliant tech that embodies the very hard, back-breaking work that requires more training than most might think for humans to do it. It's hard to retain labour for such tasks in western agriculture, so the work groups tend to need expensive training every year. The real rebellion may come when we realise most financial and management jobs are already embodied in technology - at which point we might see the end of the current work ethic. The danger with higher plane thinking-achievement might be described as fascist idolatry - something I also feel on god as authority. I'm not much convinced by 'introspection to the light' - feels like 'Chicken Soup for the Soul' too often. Yet doubt easily becomes another certainty. I'm for some kind of smash up, but this really is just vandalism unless we really try to bring something better into place. Descartes had to say that a beneficent god would take care of us while we did radical evaluation - the Inquisition was on his back (in letters to mates he would point to what happened to Galileo and that he would fare worse as a Frenchman). The current Inquisition is, of course, economics. Christianity (before its modern descent to Xtianity) once seriously considered whether Christ owned the clothes he wore (Wyclif), a very radical question - though even this was subject to political machination. Plastic factories sourcing waste material from the Pacific are some way off. What of our ideology of private ownership when a bunch of well-armed aliens turn up and tell us they built the planet? Religion and Reason both give us the problem of authority and potential delusion. Who now would go on the streets as wave a flag for Hitler, the shell-shocked lunatic? People did and we may be doing something similar now. Could religion break the spell? On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 21:27:04 UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote: > > I do think there is a true revolution occurring as we right. Creating a > new direction. I think they will form small inter connected ¿internet? > Working together for common good. There probably will be totally self > sustaining probably cleaning up the ocean waste working at balancing the > eco systems. > > Allan > Living Soul > > -----Original Message----- > From: archytas <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 10:09 PM > Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion > > Deconstruction and reconstruction have to go hand in hand - if we have to > call them such at all. One of the rebellions I want to see is in our > literature. Though art can descend to the likes of London's 'Freeze' art > sales (kitsch rules), it has that anything goes potential. Literature is > very formulaic at the moment, mostly copies of copies of a forgotten > original - much like politics. I'm with Allan on the doing. > > On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 20:49:31 UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote: >> >> You are right religion is the basic foundation including all the >> superstitions. The source of beliefs really does not matter. At this point >> for the greatest majority of the world's people that is what they want. >> Level 1 believe follow the rules. Level 2 people become connected and >> aware others presence of a power greater than you are. >> >> How a person responds to the reality of the world in which they live >> determines they spiritual development. Often times people say one thing >> then do another. It is the actions that carry weight. What you believe >> longer matters. Atheism is a valid spiritual view point. >> >> Allan >> A Living Soul >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Molly <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 5:52 PM >> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >> >> I wouldn't go so far as to say we are killing the planet, or be so bold >> as to blame one thing like fossil fuel usage on climate change, but I do >> think Naomi has been swept along by a collective movement away from top >> down/bottom up change to something much more integrated. Human evolution >> becoming human being. These surges of collective movements all over the >> world, whether in China or Korea or Italy or New York, occurring for >> various "reasons" are like a pulse through our collective blood stream. >> Have they always been, and we are only now aware of all of them because of >> technology - or are there more than ever? Is the pulse accelerating? In >> my view, our ability to recognize global happenings through technology >> expands our consciousness. But consciousness is. It doesn't evolve or >> change. We only feel that it does because we apply mental constructs to >> what we recognize in order to analyze, understand and communicate. Here is >> the ought from is. Here, I think, the deconstruction begins. >> >> On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 10:24:12 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>> >>> I like the idea in much the same way Molly, perhaps especially that of >>> the dross falling away (perhaps from my short time in foundry work!). >>> Current physics leaves us with 96% 'dark' - something (almost) beyond our >>> senses and geometry, but still works such miracles as television, with >>> relativity telling us such mundane stuff as how a lead acid battery >>> produces far more energy than we'd expect from standard chemistry. This >>> working in action with incomplete and possibly wrong theory in our best >>> areas is much neglected. We know very little of social organisation >>> (despite reams of literature) and the role of 'constructors' across science >>> and society. What we do know is generally swamped by ignorance and the >>> need to earn a crust in existing social order. I have to say the >>> literature is not a 'how to manual'. >>> >>> Grace asks ' are we prepared to develop a whole new form of solidarity >>> economics emphasizing sustainability, mutuality, and local self-reliance?' >>> Scientists have written on this for more than a century and it comes to a >>> moral head in climate change, pollution and the cosmology of our plight >>> (needs to leave the planet over time, be prepared for collisions). The >>> facts have me convinced one can derive an ought from an is. Naomi Klein's >>> 'This Changes Everything' has a lot of the facts. The rebellious turn for >>> me would be religion free of what Tom Paine complained of (superstition), >>> most notably inflicted on us now through pseudo-science like economics >>> (highly religious in many senses including nine versions, all wrong) >>> riddled with superstition and void of spiritual thought experiment and >>> experience (data in a sense of what it could be to be human or post-human). >>> >>> On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 14:20:06 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>>> >>>> You really cover the gamut here, Neil, going round and round the nut. >>>> Rebellion has been on my mind too lately, as one of the great Detroiters, >>>> Grace Lee Boggs, lays in hospice. She spent her adult life spanning 8 >>>> decades organizing social activism locally in Detroit and nationally for >>>> many movements, civil rights and women's rights among them. I was excited >>>> to receive an award last month because she was on the agenda to receive a >>>> lifetime achievement award also but she sent a representative and her >>>> announcement came shortly afterward. Her story is quite interesting the >>>> deeper one digs into it. >>>> >>>> Toward the end of her life she leaned less toward civil disobedience >>>> and more toward spiritual coherence of groups, actively and quietly >>>> leading >>>> local groups to greater organization and standards of living. For me, her >>>> movement to peaceful rebellion was key as I have always moved thusly when >>>> called to do so. Working "with" not against in a rebellion means >>>> organizing >>>> through the deconstruction, seeing past the chaos and predatory >>>> participants that inevitably enter into the fray. Moving in spirit during >>>> rebellion gets past the right and wrong and into an vision of peak >>>> organization for the group. The movement is movement toward the vision for >>>> everyone. A great deal of rubbish falls away in the process. >>>> >>>> From my view, religion supports individuals and groups by lending a >>>> structure to the seeking, until seeking is no longer necessary. >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 7:30:31 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The 'Putinography' was subject to ridicule on our satirical show 'Have >>>>> I Got News For You'. I have never been able to feel, say, Allan or >>>>> Molly's >>>>> religion or god, though I'm not really atheist, even if that's the answer >>>>> I'd give on a survey. I don't get art with, say, Facil's eye either, and >>>>> in science and maths know I don't visualise well but do sense patterns >>>>> and >>>>> have an almost religious demand for evidence - to the extent I'd say >>>>> there >>>>> is almost none in our courtrooms or what passes for public scrutiny. >>>>> >>>>> Rebellion interests me firstly in the sense of its existence before >>>>> the human mind. Even ants 'rebel' against their captors, killing their >>>>> young, sometimes fighting against superior weapons technology (most >>>>> slavers >>>>> have mandibles like swords). The rebellion is not about freedom for the >>>>> individual ants but their species. The rebels will die, but their >>>>> species >>>>> may prosper from the reduced slaving population. We tend to metaphors >>>>> like >>>>> 'co-evolution' and 'arms' races' in biology, but these are inadequate, >>>>> transferring the all-too-human. >>>>> >>>>> Religion, stripped of its institutionalism and rationalisation, seems >>>>> a rebellion to peace and in and against nature at the same time. It is >>>>> against self whilst also self-development. The language is almost >>>>> impossible as we have barely learned the ambiguity and parochiality of >>>>> language and are confused on originality. Mimicry is everywhere in >>>>> nature >>>>> - ants pretending to be spiders, spiders and beetles pretending to be >>>>> ants >>>>> - politicians pretending to be other than puppets of shadow control. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Monday, 13 October 2014 19:51:39 UTC+1, facilitator wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I believe some of this. However I deviate in that I believe churches >>>>>> are for the individual to hide among or be counted in the group. This >>>>>> is >>>>>> even more true of the priest, Rabbi, Imam, etc. Saying they are for the >>>>>> masses requires a much wider brush that I can't paint liberally with. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, October 13, 2014 12:27:43 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Churches are for basically for the masses .. There is a basic need >>>>>>> to believe or explain the unknown. Transition into spirituality does >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> take much. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Common religious views are a starting point from which to build ones >>>>>>> spiritual view and experience. Within Catholicism there are basically 3 >>>>>>> levels of spirituality. The first level , believe God is real go to >>>>>>> church >>>>>>> follow the rules. The second level is where people become aware of the >>>>>>> presence of God, with him becoming a major part of their lives, with >>>>>>> experiences like Molly spoke of not being uncommon. Theses experiences >>>>>>> being a driving force. The Third level the roll of the church changes >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> spiritual guide to one of an observer and scribe. At this level these >>>>>>> people are no longer the ' churches ' problem but that of God. The >>>>>>> official >>>>>>> church very much likes these people as part of the church, providing >>>>>>> assistance when possible. >>>>>>> Many centuries of observation allows the church to easily recognize >>>>>>> the different levels. It really is an interesting source of study. >>>>>>> The English are among the greatest slavers in the world.. Followed >>>>>>> closely by islam. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: archytas <[email protected]> >>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>> Sent: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 4:18 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've done much of the magic in the secret society bit (in what was >>>>>>> once Zaire). My friend (a tribal chief) and I were able to repeat the >>>>>>> magic in my university office. Sadly, I get rather the reverse >>>>>>> experience >>>>>>> of Molly in our churches. Jean-Claude was a thorough-going Marxist, >>>>>>> though >>>>>>> detested the Lenin-Mao lines. I tend to anarchist-mutualism myself and >>>>>>> am >>>>>>> never sure about Molly's higher plane - my sense is it emerges from the >>>>>>> material conditions of possibility. Sleeping near ants is not >>>>>>> recommended. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was thinking of the potentials of religion to free us from >>>>>>> biological structuration, perhaps in the sense of a poison-cure. It >>>>>>> has >>>>>>> both higher plane experience and chronic rationalisation - the latter, >>>>>>> say, >>>>>>> in jihad, crusades and the ant-like 'let's kill the Yazidi and steal >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> women' (or Numbers 31). Many of our terms have this pharmikon status, >>>>>>> though we allow them to dominate in 'good' form - education, >>>>>>> government, >>>>>>> freedom ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John Brown is often presented as a deluded religionist, but at least >>>>>>> wasn't talking western philosophy at the top table of a slave economy. >>>>>>> Religion these days seems silent on material matters. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Monday, 13 October 2014 14:16:26 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I suppose that it does provide a place to hide in community from >>>>>>>> the mundane and economic realities of the lower and middle classes if >>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>> is necessary. I've always found a church community to provide its own >>>>>>>> cultural limitations based on what all human groups offer, and not >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> insight into faith or support in crisis of faith. At the head of each >>>>>>>> church is a human being, struggling as we all do to make sense of it >>>>>>>> all. >>>>>>>> The tone of this culture depends invariable on the tone of the leader >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> they deviate more or less from the greater church dictates. Mass >>>>>>>> itself is >>>>>>>> little more than a ritual although once understood as a process to >>>>>>>> higher >>>>>>>> consciousness, can take you there, I've experienced it, and not just >>>>>>>> in a >>>>>>>> Catholic mass. Participating tribal ritual drumming can lead to >>>>>>>> ecstasies. >>>>>>>> Much if not all of this is lost on most congregations, in my >>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Monday, October 13, 2014 7:03:02 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Many of our terms for freedom have religious origin in the rough >>>>>>>>> phrase 'freedom from debt' - more and much wider than than Xtian >>>>>>>>> kicking >>>>>>>>> over the tables of the money-lenders. There have been many debt >>>>>>>>> jubilees >>>>>>>>> in history, often on the death of a 'king'. Debt slavery is and has >>>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>>> much wider in human communities than most seem to know. We are not >>>>>>>>> widely >>>>>>>>> informed on biology and anthropology in this regard. Religion can >>>>>>>>> raise >>>>>>>>> the best and worst in us. Much of it raises the notion of adherents >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> some kind of chosen people, sometimes restricted to the in-group >>>>>>>>> blood >>>>>>>>> line. The Yazidi are such an example. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Chimps seem to have a form of 'religion' connected with the >>>>>>>>> seasons - as many of our belief systems. I saw footage of some >>>>>>>>> southeast >>>>>>>>> Asian spiders this morning - they lay eggs in a central tower >>>>>>>>> surrounded by >>>>>>>>> a henge - immediately bringing Stonehenge to my mind, though they >>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>> hack stones to shape. Religion raises Facil's 'we might both (all) >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> wrong' phrase to my mind, something often missing in our argument >>>>>>>>> despite >>>>>>>>> knowledge that we can make many equally powerful arguments about the >>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>> stuff (Sextus Empiricus). To judge between arguments we need >>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>> mystical (religious). I say this as a scientist knowing magic wands >>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>> work. Religion could be rebellion, a postmodern moment, >>>>>>>>> oversimplifying to >>>>>>>>> the extreme, of incredulity towards metanarratives like government, >>>>>>>>> law and >>>>>>>>> economics - a dreamtime against material and spiritual debt-rules. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Black holes have recently become 'grey', but dreamtime might >>>>>>>>> challenge the geometry we use. Global warming and much else on >>>>>>>>> pollution >>>>>>>>> challenges us to think 'This Changes Everything' (Naomi Klein) - the >>>>>>>>> economics of 'we can never afford to do the right things' in my view. >>>>>>>>> So >>>>>>>>> what does religion offer on the postmodern moment of rebellion? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >> >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> ""Minds Eye"" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > ""Minds Eye"" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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