I am not sure that we need to rely so much on our historical autobiography 
as current noetic make-up. In as much as everything we have ever 
experienced leads us to this moment, maybe, but it is recognition in this 
moment that lends our view. I also see no need to exclude other from self, 
as it is through relatedness comes understanding of both in an inclusive, 
not exclusive model.

On Saturday, December 20, 2014 8:31:23 PM UTC-5, archytas wrote:
>
> As humans, we are intrigued by who we are and how we differ from other 
> creatures of evolution. Among the capacities thought to be uniquely human 
> are autonoetic consciousness,
> the aspect of self-awareness that allows us to imagine our own experiences 
> in different places at other times, and theory of mind (ToM), which allows 
> us to infer other people’s current
> mental states. The idea that ToM is closely related to, and that it may 
> depend on, episodic memory and autonoetic consciousness seems perfectly 
> natural: that in order to imagine and make sense of other people’s 
> thoughts, feelings, intentions, and actions, we must rely on our 
> autobiographical recollections. The ability to consciously recollect past 
> personal happenings has been shown to be necessary for imagining coherent 
> and detailed personal happenings in the future. Both episodic memory and 
> ToM emerge close in time in ontogenetic development. The neural substrate 
> on which the two abilities rely is in many ways strikingly similar.
>
> This might just accord with Molly's notions of self-development - that one 
> needs to get self right before making sense of or enjoying the world and 
> understanding others and how we might choose to live.  Idealism can turn in 
> on itself, with the world seen as cynical and frustrating the ideals - 
> mysticism looking like thousands of years of flowery failure by people with 
> time to think it up in personal situations of exploitation of sweat off 
> others' backs.  The grim Mike Leigh film 'Naked' makes such points.
>
> One might say that actually living and working alongside others is better 
> than making it all up mystically from self could be a better start than 
> introspection amongst other chattering class types.  In respect of the 
> first paragraph above, I found a dire shortage of people who did have 
> accurate autobiography to work from.  My own is particularly suspect.
>
>
> On Sunday, December 21, 2014 12:33:27 AM UTC, archytas wrote:
>>
>> Amsterdam politicians have been apt to talk of levelling the red lights 
>> and replacing them with a red carpet to the museums and theatre.  I liked 
>> the piano barge.  In another form of mysticism one can see what lies 
>> beneath.  Der Wallen is a place to see trafficking and exploitation, then 
>> throw up.  I did a coffee shop instead - walking red light districts is 
>> like unpaid overtime to me.  Took the technicolour yawner on a tram to see 
>> some flower fields.  Beauty is fine until you think of it as 'not ugly', 
>> thus making ugliness and disability some kind of sin.
>>
>> Personally, I love mindful mindlessness as the basis of being able to do 
>> nothing.  Tried it on this laptop the other day before effecting a cure 
>> with the soldering iron.  Mysticism can be good, but also mystification. 
>>  Angels and devils again.
>>
>> On Saturday, December 20, 2014 10:27:49 PM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:
>>>
>>> The museums of Amsterdam are great, somethings are good with much that 
>>> is os question. I do not like wandering around their either. You are right 
>>> it is in the eye if the beholder. Greatfully it is out of bicycling range 
>>> Leiden is 10 km one way Den Haag (Den Hague) 10 km a different direction 
>>> the difference between the two is Lieden is a city where as Den Haag is i 
>>> oversize town and does not qualify as a city by dutch law.
>>> Everything is a matter of perspective. 
>>>
>>> ~~
>>> لا القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد أو إيذاء الآخرين 
>>> Do not murder, rape, enslave or harm others
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: archytas <[email protected]>
>>> To: [email protected]
>>> Sent: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 23:03
>>> Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Mysticism
>>>
>>> A guy I didn't like walked through Amsterdam's red light district with 
>>> me years ago.  He threw up over the nearest canal bridge.  I rather liked 
>>> his mystic summary of the place.  Reality, one suspects, is not in the eye 
>>> of the beholder.
>>>
>>> On Saturday, December 20, 2014 9:10:24 PM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:
>>>>
>>>> To quote
>>>>
>>>> "mysticism is the art of union with Reality."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "The old story of Eyes and No-Eyes is really the story of the mystical 
>>>> and unmystical types. "No-Eyes" has fixed his attention on the fact that 
>>>> he 
>>>> is obliged to take a walk. For him the chief factor of existence is his 
>>>> own 
>>>> movement along the road; a movement which he intends to accomplish as 
>>>> efficiently and comfortably as he can. He asks not to know what may
>>>> be on either side of the hedges. He ignores the caress of the wind 
>>>> until it threatens to remove his hat. He trudges along, steadily,
>>>> diligently; avoiding the muddy pools, but oblivious of the light which 
>>>> they reflect.
>>>>  "Eyes" takes the walk too: and for him it is a perpetual revelation of 
>>>> beauty and wonder. The sunlight inebriates him, the winds delight him, the 
>>>> very effort of the journey is a joy. Magic presences throng the roadside, 
>>>> or cry salutations to him
>>>> from the hidden fields. The rich world through which he moves lies in 
>>>> the fore-ground of his consciousness; and it gives up new secrets to him 
>>>> at 
>>>> every step. "No-Eyes," when told of his adventures adventures, usually 
>>>> refuses to believe that both have gone by the same road. He fancies that 
>>>> his companion has been floating about in the air, or beset by agreeable 
>>>> hallucinations. We shall never
>>>> persuade him to the contrary unless we persuade him to look for 
>>>> himself."
>>>>
>>>> ~~
>>>> لا القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد أو إيذاء الآخرين 
>>>> Do not murder, rape, enslave or harm others
>>>
>>>  -- 
>>>
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>>

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