You are so uninformed that it isn't even funny to pick on you.
On Mon, Mar 19, 2007 at 03:04:46PM +0100, Karel Kulhavy wrote: > On Mon, Mar 19, 2007 at 12:06:31AM +0100, SW wrote: > > I have a feeling that the campaign means "We don't want vendors to require > us to use a blob but we'll ocassionally use them when we have to other way", > while Theo means "I don't want vendors to require us to use a blob and I > refuse > to use them even when no other way". > > And that the heated words stem from the subtle difference. Politics instead of > developing. It's the vendors who decide about the blobs and they may or may > not > take your complaints into account. Your invested time may or may not return. > > If you don't like the blobs, here are the tools to get rid of them: > > http://geda.seul.org/tools/gschem/index.html > http://geda.seul.org/tools/pcb/index.html > http://datasheetarchive.com/ > http://www.ribbonsoft.com/qcad.html > http://www.brlcad.org/ > > There's not really much difference between writing software or writing > hardware, it's merely a psychological barrier, software hackers are scared of > tampering with hardware because they are not used to. The costs of prototypes > are negligible compared to the cost of time involved - and this time is high > both in software and hardware hacking. > > With these tools, your invested time will return for sure. > > CL< > > Hi, > > > > this is the conversation I had with Theo: > > > > 1. mail, 12.03.2007 01:29 > > > > Dear Theo, > > > > allBSD is currently prepairing for the Stop Blob! campaign > > an we have a poster ready here: > > > > http://www.allbsd.de/src/Kampagnen/StopBlob/StopBlob-en-Poster.pdf > > > > This is already translated into some languages, more are to come > > soon and I'm currently writing a flyer that will be translated > > too in as many languages as possible. > > > > Any objections/ideas? > > > > Best regadrs, > > > > Daniel > > > > > > 2. mail from Theo, 12.03.2007 02:34: > > > > I don't know why you are using a BSD daemon, when the two BSD's > > that use Daemon imagery are the ones that ACCEPT blobs, in particular, > > Sam Leffler's atheros driver. > > > > So I absolutely do not see how you think you can go stealing our > > campaign for your own use! > > > > WE are the only people of the ones that you claim to represent > > who are actually standing up for this issue. If you put those other > > project's names on there, that's unbelieveably disrespectful of > > our efforts. > > > > FreeBSD *specifically* has vendor drivers in it, and has developers > > who work at vendors. Not just Sam, but they also have an employee > > of NVidia who they consider a developer, and who now makes changes > > to the ethernet driver everyone got from us, without even replying > > to mails from our developers who wrote it! > > > > No. I entirely object to what you are doing here. You are trying > > to make it look like those other projects are anti-blob, when they > > are NOT. > > > > > > 3. mail from Theo, 12.03.2007 03:00: > > > > Did you even think about the fact that there are only two operating > > systems that ship without blobs? > > > > OpenBSD > > > > Debian (and derived systems) > > > > FreeBSD and NetBSD are not on the list of blob-less operating systems. > > Both of them ship with at least one blob, compiled directly into the > > kernel. Their developers have NEVER helped us fight for > > documentation, or fight the blob. They've made a couple vague words > > sometimes, but then gone back to their American ways and talked about > > the need to sometimes compromise. They have UNDERMINED our efforts to > > fight the blob, and now you want to include them in a poster about it? > > > > I think you are not thinking your campaign through very well at all. > > > > > > 4. mail from me to Theo, 13.03.2007 01:16: > > > > Theo de Raadt qrote: > > > > I don't know why you are using a BSD daemon, when the two BSD's > > > > that use Daemon imagery are the ones that ACCEPT blobs, in particular, > > > > Sam Leffler's atheros driver. > > > > > > > > So I absolutely do not see how you think you can go stealing our > > > > campaign for your own use! > > > > > > > > WE are the only people of the ones that you claim to represent > > > > who are actually standing up for this issue. If you put those other > > > > project's names on there, that's unbelieveably disrespectful of > > > > our efforts. > > > > > > > > FreeBSD *specifically* has vendor drivers in it, and has developers > > > > who work at vendors. Not just Sam, but they also have an employee > > > > of NVidia who they consider a developer, and who now makes changes > > > > to the ethernet driver everyone got from us, without even replying > > > > to mails from our developers who wrote it! > > > > > > > > No. I entirely object to what you are doing here. You are trying > > > > to make it look like those other projects are anti-blob, when they > > > > are NOT. > > > > > > Hi Theo, > > > > in short: This campaign was startet after a long discussion internally > > and we couldn't find ANY BSD-guy from whatever BSD that claimed Blobs > > or NDAs are a good idea. > > > > We have a large number of individuals using and contributing to all > > BSDs and this is not a campaign pointing fingers to certain people > > using Blobs. > > > > This is a campaign to rise public awareness that Blobs are a bad idea > > and they should support ALL BSDs fighting against it. We all need free > > documentation and we all want it. > > > > This campaign is totally unrelated to the one started with OpenBSD > > 3.9 and the poster for it and we haven't used anything from it, so > > there's absolutely no "stealing our campaign". And no, nobody is > > unrespectful here. > > > > And btw it's not our own use. We want to help all BSDs in getting > > more documentation. > > > > Yes, there are 4 Blobs in FreeBSD-Generic, NetBSD maybe 1 but I would > > better subscribe it as a firmware modul, MirOS none, DragonFly none > > afaik. But this is a bad idea and a lot of FreeBSD-people sharing that > > view. But this is BSD and freedom of choice. If somebody wants to use > > NVidia drivers or the like it's his own risk, not mine or ours. Don't > > complain, tell why it's wrong. And for that very purpose I'm writing > > the flyer following soon. > > > > The BSD deamon was used because it's the only symbol shared by all > > BSDs and it looks nice, people liked the first poster draft a lot > > when we showed it 2 weeks ago in Chemnitz (the poster was changed > > in between after that experience). > > > > You claim you don't get any support from the other BSDs and now a > > group of other BSD-users starts that campaign and you complain. > > Where's the beef? > > > > Best regards, Daniel > > > > > > > > 5. mail from Theo, 13.03.2007 02:36: > > > > > in short: This campaign was startet after a long discussion internally > > > > and we couldn't find ANY BSD-guy from whatever BSD that claimed Blobs > > > > or NDAs are a good idea. > > > > Did you ask Sam Leffler, who writes a BLOB that is included in > > FreeBSD? > > > > I guess not. > > > > Did you ask the Nvidia employee who works for FreeBSD? > > > > Oh, they may they would say that Blobs are a bad idea, but sure as > > hell won't argue against them either. > > > > > > We have a large number of individuals using and contributing to all > > > > BSDs and this is not a campaign pointing fingers to certain people > > > > using Blobs. > > > > > > > > This is a campaign to rise public awareness that Blobs are a bad idea > > > > and they should support ALL BSDs fighting against it. We all need free > > > > documentation and we all want it. > > > > > > > > This campaign is totally unrelated to the one started with OpenBSD > > > > 3.9 and the poster for it and we haven't used anything from it, so > > > > there's absolutely no "stealing our campaign". And no, nobody is > > > > unrespectful here. > > > > This campaign is using our words. If you release > > > > > > And btw it's not our own use. We want to help all BSDs in getting > > > > more documentation. > > > > This campaign will not get the BSD's more documentation. It will > > tell a lie -- that lie being that the other BSD's are anti-BLOB, > > when they have developers actively incorporating and shipping BLOBS. > > > > Your whole campaign is a lie. > > > > > > Yes, there are 4 Blobs in FreeBSD-Generic, NetBSD maybe 1 but I would > > > > better subscribe it as a firmware modul, MirOS none, DragonFly none > > > > afaik. > > > > If those are firmware modules, then I don't know what a blob is. > > > > > > But this is a bad idea and a lot of FreeBSD-people sharing that > > > > view. But this is BSD and freedom of choice. > > > > Fuck that. It is not about freedom of choice. Our campaign is about > > the freedom to impliment on our hardware, code that we can trust. > > You want to subvert our campaign, and turn it into a shadow of itself. > > > > > > If somebody wants to use > > > > NVidia drivers or the like it's his own risk, not mine or ours. Don't > > > > complain, tell why it's wrong. And for that very purpose I'm writing > > > > the flyer following soon. > > > > The vendors are free to not release documentation, and they are free > > to convince projects to incorporate blobs. But you are going to send > > out a flyer saying that the BSD's contain no blobs. > > > > That is a big fat lie. And it is not the vendors lying, nor is it > > the projects lying. > > > > You are the one telling a lie. > > > > > > You claim you don't get any support from the other BSDs and now a > > > > group of other BSD-users starts that campaign and you complain. > > > > Where's the beef? > > > > You are not one of "the other BSDs". Your campaign will not support > > more documentation. It puts the name of BLOB-including operating > > systems on a poster saying that they are anti-blob. That's a bald > > lie, and it undermines our effort. > > > > OpenBSD distinguishes itself on the fact that it does not include > > blobs. Most other operating systems are completely fine with > > incorporating blobs. The other projects you are showing on the poster > > specifically include blobs. They do NOT help us get documentation. > > > > When we ask vendors for documentation, the other projects do NOT back > > us. I've seen mails sent to vendors where FreeBSD developers try to > > make our requests look wrong. Yes, they have actively SHUTTLED our > > attempts to get more documentation. > > > > Why are you not capable of thinking clearly on this? > > > > If you release that poster which uses our slogan in such an incredibly > > false way, I will come out swinging. I will probably post all these > > emails. > > > > If you want a campaign of some sort, invent something of your own. > > Stealing our campaign just shows that you don't have any brains. > > > > > > I am cc'ing Wim, to bring him into this conversation. > > > > > > 6. mail from me to Theo and Wim, 13.03.2007 19:08: > > > > Theo de Raadt wrote: > > >> >> in short: This campaign was startet after a long discussion internally > > >> >> and we couldn't find ANY BSD-guy from whatever BSD that claimed Blobs > > >> >> or NDAs are a good idea. > > > > > > > > Did you ask Sam Leffler, who writes a BLOB that is included in > > > > FreeBSD? > > > > > > > > I guess not. > > > > > > > > Did you ask the Nvidia employee who works for FreeBSD? > > > > The mere fact that some FreeBSD-guys include Blobs in GENERIC instead > > of shipping a Blob-free FreeBSD and let the user choose if they like > > to add Blobs is a sad story. I am totally sure we need to make clear > > that a large part or maybe the majority of FreeBSD users don't like > > that to change things. > > > > You are a guy who hasn't learned anything from the past and that > > accusations in public need to exactly nothing. And you will likely > > never learn till the end of your life. That's your Karma and I respect > > that. > > > > > > Oh, they may they would say that Blobs are a bad idea, but sure as > > > > hell won't argue against them either. > > > > > > >> >> We have a large number of individuals using and contributing to all > > >> >> BSDs and this is not a campaign pointing fingers to certain people > > >> >> using Blobs. > > >> >> > > >> >> This is a campaign to rise public awareness that Blobs are a bad idea > > >> >> and they should support ALL BSDs fighting against it. We all need free > > >> >> documentation and we all want it. > > >> >> > > >> >> This campaign is totally unrelated to the one started with OpenBSD > > >> >> 3.9 and the poster for it and we haven't used anything from it, so > > >> >> there's absolutely no "stealing our campaign". And no, nobody is > > >> >> unrespectful here. > > > > > > > > This campaign is using our words. If you release > > > > Ok, the only thing OpenBSD-related is "Stob Blob!" and the > > OpenBSD-logo. We respect that and we will eliminate that asap > > to make sure nobody thinks this campaign has anything to do with OpenBSD. > > > > >> >> And btw it's not our own use. We want to help all BSDs in getting > > >> >> more documentation. > > > > > > > > This campaign will not get the BSD's more documentation. It will > > > > tell a lie -- that lie being that the other BSD's are anti-BLOB, > > > > when they have developers actively incorporating and shipping BLOBS. > > > > > > > > Your whole campaign is a lie. > > > > > > >> >> Yes, there are 4 Blobs in FreeBSD-Generic, NetBSD maybe 1 but I would > > >> >> better subscribe it as a firmware modul, MirOS none, DragonFly none > > >> >> afaik. > > > > > > > > If those are firmware modules, then I don't know what a blob is. > > > > > > >> >> But this is a bad idea and a lot of FreeBSD-people sharing that > > >> >> view. But this is BSD and freedom of choice. > > > > > > > > Fuck that. It is not about freedom of choice. Our campaign is about > > > > the freedom to impliment on our hardware, code that we can trust. > > > > You want to subvert our campaign, and turn it into a shadow of itself. > > > > > > >> >> If somebody wants to use > > >> >> NVidia drivers or the like it's his own risk, not mine or ours. Don't > > >> >> complain, tell why it's wrong. And for that very purpose I'm writing > > >> >> the flyer following soon. > > > > > > > > The vendors are free to not release documentation, and they are free > > > > to convince projects to incorporate blobs. But you are going to send > > > > out a flyer saying that the BSD's contain no blobs. > > > > No, I havent't told you I would write that and you haven't seen the > > unfinished flyer yet. You are assuming that I will tell lies, which > > I will not. I will tell people which Blobs are used in each BSD and > > that this is wrong imho. I'm not in a position to lie about anything, > > neither to you nor any other person. > > > > > > That is a big fat lie. And it is not the vendors lying, nor is it > > > > the projects lying. > > > > > > > > You are the one telling a lie. > > > > Sorry, this is personal without any evidence/argument. > > > > >> >> You claim you don't get any support from the other BSDs and now a > > >> >> group of other BSD-users starts that campaign and you complain. > > >> >> Where's the beef? > > > > > > > > You are not one of "the other BSDs". Your campaign will not support > > > > more documentation. It puts the name of BLOB-including operating > > > > systems on a poster saying that they are anti-blob. That's a bald > > > > lie, and it undermines our effort. > > > > > > > > OpenBSD distinguishes itself on the fact that it does not include > > > > blobs. Most other operating systems are completely fine with > > > > incorporating blobs. The other projects you are showing on the poster > > > > specifically include blobs. They do NOT help us get documentation. > > > > > > > > When we ask vendors for documentation, the other projects do NOT back > > > > us. I've seen mails sent to vendors where FreeBSD developers try to > > > > make our requests look wrong. Yes, they have actively SHUTTLED our > > > > attempts to get more documentation. > > > > > > > > Why are you not capable of thinking clearly on this? > > > > > > > > If you release that poster which uses our slogan in such an incredibly > > > > false way, I will come out swinging. I will probably post all these > > > > emails. > > > > Please post all the mails on misc or whereever you may like, we don't > > have anything to hide in public. > > > > > > If you want a campaign of some sort, invent something of your own. > > > > Stealing our campaign just shows that you don't have any brains. > > > > We will eliminate anything that has the slightest touch of OpenBSD > > and your campaign in it. > > > > > > I am cc'ing Wim, to bring him into this conversation. > > > > No prob with that. > > > > Best regards and thanks for your attention and advice. > > > > - Daniel > > > > > > > > That was the conversation in detail, nothing altered, nothing left > > out, read and draw your own conclusions. > > > > Sorry, I'm not angry, I'm focused and productive. > > > > Best regards, Daniel
