Sam, Freeman & Jim
you guys really hit a few things on the head that the average eBay buyer or eBay seller forgets....
the reality of selling is that there are many avenues to sell depending on your knowledge, inclination & quality of stock.
Ebay is without a doubt an anachronism that cannot be challenged by many and when it is challenged it can only be so by a talented seller who knows his game.
For instance, eBay in 1998 was a very different place than it is today. The small number of sellers & buyers at that time more accurately depicted the actual hobby (whatever that hobby was) and I can tell you there were few people selling stuff at low low low prices all the time as constant eBay sellers. More frequently the competition for an established pre-ebay dealer was very slim and though many items sold for low prices, the quality items did indeed sell for prices close above or below the actual perceived value within the hobby. But this has changed for a variety of reasons..
For instance in 2000 your most likely competition for selling was possibly broken up as a 50% real seller & 50% "joe's emptying his closet" seller. So the only real competition a "known" seller had was a non-seller and I can tell you the prices for the real seller were profitable and the prices for a Joe's Closet were considerably lower.
But what has happened is that many old time sellers like myself saw how good it was & began to form our businesses around eBay for a great deal of our yearly income. However it has come back to bite us in some ways. For instance, eBay has made an incredible change in the last few years from a good source of reasonable sales to a total garage sale mentality. Added to the fact that the "joe's empty closet" seller has gone from a secondary seller to a massive amount of full time eBay sellers who do not care of they do or do not get a "real value" for the stuff they sell which makes it more & more difficult to get fair prices for people like myself, or Freeman or whomever and in many ways I see Bruce's auctions faring slightly worse in some ways all the time.. except for a few auctions during the year (like the Hollywood Poster auction in December) I think Bruce's results are declining.. slowly, but still declining and you can see this by looking at his database of prices realized.
Well as we say "that's the rub".. eBay is declining in many ways and to sellers like myself, it is a bad thing and even though to buyers it looks like a good thing.it really isn't. For instance if you are an "eBay only seller", I have no doubt that your workload has gone up while your income has gone down (steadily), your costs are rising - as much as double - and your results are very anemic right now. This is not all the fault of the garage sale mentality as there are economic concerns in our nation (the economy getting better?? yeah right). But one more way it isn't good for collectors is that dealers do need to make money AND they are the folks most likely to be able to turn up the items that collectors are looking for as we know what is scarce, in demand and of high quality whereas the Joe's Closet seller has absolutely no clue what's what and face it folks... price guides don't tell you anything unless you understand how to "read between the lines". Jon Warren, my dear friend, puts out a price guide and I think most of us don't use it for anything except information complimentary to what we already know. One reason for that is that Jon believes every collectible item must achieve an increase in value from year to year so people will become interested in collecting because they have a belief that whatever they buy will indeed be a good investment, which most of us who are seasoned collectors believe to be a falsehood because we all know that 95% of posters, comics or whatever is crap that will never increase in value and as well, many items become worth less money as they get older because many no longer recognize the material.. and silent film collectibles are the best example in this hobby. But I got off track for one thing.. if dealers like myself can no longer make money in our businesses we simply move on and we no longer are a source to locate & sell quality collectibles because we cannot compete with the garage sale mentality. So the "bottoming out" of the hobby price wise has a negative effect in the long run in some ways and you have to ask the question "was that a good thing for collectors or not"?
Don't forget, as prices go down, not only do dealers have a harder time making $$$, but the value of your collection decreases also.. If you paid $300 for a Star Wars 1sheet and now it commonly sells for $100 how does that benefit you, as a collector??
But we also forget that eBay is NOT the only way folks collect AND many people do not even participate in eBay which means there is another market with more stable prices and these are the conventions, shops and galleries.
One major problem with eBay that I have not mentioned is that when I set up at shows, is that way too many collectors want to use eBay's pricing as leverage when bargaining with dealers which puts us in impossible situations as items sold on eBay can go for as little as 5% of real value and regularly sell for 1/2 of value or less. As a matter of fact one conversation I had with Bruce not too long ago was the high probability that when Bruce or Freeman or I are NOT successful bidders on an eBay item, we are almost always the underbidders on thos eitems.. So lets capitulate this... I bid hoping to get an item for stock, so I only want to pay 1/3 or 1/2 or whatever. When I am successful I bought an item cheap. When I am not successful the item still went for cheap!!!!! So how in the world can I even consider eBay as a viable reference to that collector who wants to use eBay as leverage??
So the only thing to do is to continue using eBay to sell some things.. but to seek separate outlets to reach collectors so that our incomes are not held hostage by this huge corporation, which is what you are if you use eBay as you total source of income.
So in my case I chose to open a gallery where I can get real prices which results in a real value for my experience, my investment and my merchandise. I am not interested in becoming a seller who starts an item on eBay at $100 and after months of listing it it finally works it's way down to $9.99 starting price as it's all I can get.. on eBay at least.
Unfortunately I really wasn't looking for a retail location!! I was looking for a warehouse, but they cost too damned much so I actually found a great spot at a reasonable price (I found out my landlord wanted to get all spaces rented so he could sell the building, otherwise my rent might have been much higher) and to be sure, when I closed my art gallery back east in 1992 before moving to Vegas I never expected to have another. But now that I do....
Prices in my gallery will reflect all of the factors I stated and the fact that in the gallery all posters are either A) framed, B) linenbacked, C) shrink wrapped which is not how we sell on eBay. I have rent there (okay, compare it to listing fees), utilities, advertising, employee(s), insurance policies, and hordes of other expenses.
Sam Sarowitz without question has some of the highest prices I ever see when I look at the Almanac but it reflects his astronomical rent in NYC (my home town) as well as his generally higher cost of doing business and the fact that many of his clients most likely do not have the time, inclination or interest in seeking on eBay what they feel they can more easily find at Sam's gallery.. plus many of his clients are not even collectors (AH-HAH) who walk in, see something they like & fork over the dough without saying "I can get it for less on eBay. I'll bet that for Sam's yearly rent in NYC you can buy a real nice house in Vegas.. for cash!! Do you think it's easier for Sam to recoup his rent by selling at gallery prices or by selling $9.99 items on eBay ??? Or how about just trying to get this crappy August month to be profitable on eBay and then live on that.. not me folks
eBay certainly has it's place in the hobby as does gallery pricing and if you choose to buy on eBay.. you should recognize that the prices don't reflect anything in the real world 90% of the time......
Rich-------------------------------------------
At 07:22 AM 8/29/04, Posteritati wrote:
Hi all,
Afraid I missed most of this stream but i did catch Freeman's post and wanted to give a few thoughts as I am mentioned.
What I think everyone has to remember is that the movie poster market is a much, much more than just Ebay. I think people (particularly those who sell primarily through it) tend to forget that. There are many people out there who do not have the time or inclination to deal with Ebay or any auction. They want to browse a selection (either through an on-line site or gallery) that has merchandise that they can buy now. Not an hour, day or week from now, but now. And at a fixed price. And from a known reputable dealer. And where they can actually see the item in the flesh. And in our case from someone that will also frame the poster. The many movie poster businesses world-wide that are thriving are proof of this (not that it is necessarily easy - see below for just a few of the costs involved).
I know that all of this is not remotely restricted to the movie poster business. It is the same in every antique & collectible business. So everyone that gets annoyed when they see us or another gallery selling posters for several times what they might be available on Ebay for needs to remember that. They also need to remember that it costs quite a bit to open, maintain, promote & publicize and staff a gallery. Not to mention acquiring and replenishing an inventory of over 14,000 different posters like we do.
Ebay was started and I happen to think will remain primarily as a virtual yard/garage sale, not as a virtual store. I know that they have tried to position themselves differently but I think that is where they are and will stay. Just my two cents.
Regards, Sam Sarowitz Posteritati 239 Centre Street New York, NY 10013 212-226-2207/ Fax: 212-226-2102 http://www.posteritati.com
Freeman here,
I am surprised this hasn't come up before, but many of the people mentioned today are dealers who operate galleries. It should come as no surprise the shocking amount of money that is spent for rent every month. To that end the price of posters naturally are going to be at their premium. To their credit, the better galleries usually strive for best quality and the service and individual attention is key in the handling of the sale.
But I worry how long these galleries can compete with Ebay especially the week in and week out dumping of poster materials beginning at less than $5 and saturating the marketplace, thus driving the prices down. Some say this is good for the hobby allowing the poster to establish its own equilibrium within supply and demand. Horseshit. It has horribly tainted a great deal of the buying public to EXPECT posters to be at rock-bottom prices on the internet. Therefore the truly rare and premium posters that once did find their way to Ebay are being listed less and less When they do the results are rarely impressive. For example of late I have tried to concentrate on materials not often seen on EBay. Valentino Blood and Sand lobbies and the signed Cocoanuts lobby the exception, I have floated out to the sound of silence AS YOU LIKE IT from 1936 with Olivier, STANLEY AND LIVINGSTON 3sheet,, Mae's first starrer SHE DONE HIM WRONG WC, Stan Laurel individual onesheet, LES MEPRIS -French affiche, Snow White WC original release and currently the advance one sheet, THE UNINVITED, DRUMS ALONG THE MOHAWK Wc and shockinly not even an email inquiry on the large DIARY OF A COUNTRY PRIEST, Brini's 4 Foglio for MIRACLE IN MILAN, a nmint WINGS, and a one of a kind THE WAY OF ALL FLESH mint daybill. and currently a onesheet for THE PRIVATE LIVES OF ELIZABETH AND ESSEX, a near mint pressbook of the 1935 production of SHE and the 4 foglio of Cool Hand Luke. These aren't loser posters ...........or did I not get a memo? I think the more affluent/informed purchaser has tired of the so very common listings repeated ad-nauseum that he/she is situated in dealing with galleries or individual sellers like myself and very much likes to be wooed and stroked. There lies the success that the Tony Nourmands, Kirbys, Adrian Cowdreys, Sarowitzez, Helmuts, Limageries, Cinemondes, and to a lesser extent the Freemans and Channings (he Chan I didn't want to be by myself) pursue. But is it a law of diminishing returns? How many galleries have folded in the last 5 years. How many have opened.....atta boy Rich. So there is a market for gallery pricing inasmuch as people will pay the extra for the informed, higher quality and premium material with courteous service and personal attention. But the days of once popular mainstays like Star Wars material, Godfather, Chinatown, The Wild Bunch, Eastwood anything, Bond (dramatically so) and early Disney '37 to present have all tumbled. Depending on the price originally purchased which for many inventory two years old will presetnt challenges in meeting the profit arc require to operate their space and or websites.
But may I give credit where credit is due, I sold 3 posters on MOPO --- Bicycle Thief (Italian 4 foglio), Roaring Twenties (1 sheet) and Shoe Shine Italian in a 2 month span totaling over $20,000.00 SCOTT'S GALLERY is open for biz to be sure. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
-- Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
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