Well spoken, JR
To make matters worse, "Private Auctions" yes indeed the shillsheister
can easy find out your reserve by bidding high and then re tract.
You wouldn't even know it!
Best,
Dario.
JR wrote:
Guys, guys, guys...
It's not that simple, and we all know it. Yes, if you set a
maximum bid and say "I will pay no more" you cannot be run up OVER that
amount by a shill -- but, dudes, you sure can be run up TO that amount,
or darn close to it, anyway.
To say that the shill doesn't know what the maximum bid you have
in mind may be is true, but that has never prevented shills in the past
from working the room, live or electronic, to see how high they could
push bidders who seem very interested in a particular item. That's why
they're called shills and why they've been around auctions since the
days when dinosaurs ruled the earth. Sometimes the shill guesses wrong,
pushes to hard and gets stuck. But a good shill... one with experience
who knows the market and the bidding audience he's working on, can get
a pretty good feel for what he can get away with.
So, a genuine bidder can end up paying much more for an item
than he might otherwise have paid if there is expert, experienced
shilling going on, let's not pretend that can't happen. I presume the
possibility of this having happened is what Dario is upset about.
Understandably. But unfortunately that's a danger in any auction --
shilling can happen at anyone's auction. It can happen without the
seller even being aware of it, if it turns out to be a conspiracy
between the shill and the consigner, rather than the shill and the
seller.
Kirby, Ron and others are correct in saying that the only thing
you can do about shilling -- since it can't be stopped, is almost
impossible to prove, and there's no way to know if it really is
happening or if you are simply up against another genuine bidder who
also wants the item -- is to stick to your maximum bid and not let
yourself get pushed up any further than you are really willing to pay.
Does this mean that you will lose a lot of auctions? You betcha.
Some of them you will lose to genuine bidders. Others you will stick
the shills with.
But there's always another auction, so all you can do is try to
keep from getting carried away in a last-minute bidding wars (whatever
the cause).
Oddly, the sniper programs have turned out to be a shill's worst
enemy.
-- JR
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
Saturday, November 12, 2005 1:34
Subject:
Re: [MOPO] Bruces' sale and Heritage.
Ron and all,
I've expressed these same opinions both on MOPO and on the
late Movie Poster
Talk about shilling many times. You cannot be run up if you
exercise your own discipline
in bidding. Decide what you are willing / want to pay ahead
of time and stick to your plan.
Because you cannot control all this other stuff. It's the
only way to buy something for the
price you want at auction. There is no other way.
Kirby McDaniel
On Nov 11, 2005, at 11:40 PM, Ron Moore wrote:
Sorry to see that Dario feels bad about
being possibly "run up" or "shilled" at auctions. Frankly, i've been bidding in
auctions for so many years that I have a different perspective on it.
The only way anyone can be shilled or
run up is IF they allow it to happen to themselves. Let's face it, if you want to
bid on something, you have a price you're willing to pay. If you get it
for that price- Great! If
you get it for less- even better! But
if you end up paying MORE for it than you were originally intending to
go, well that's you're own fault. No
one holds a gun to your head and says, "Pay more or I'll pull the
trigger." If you bid
more, then you're willing to pay more. No "Shill" at any time knows
what amount you're willing to go to, so if you get "run up" then you
only allowed yourself to get run up.
Getting something for less than what you wanted to pay or
were willing to pay is not an entitlement or right. The only true way you can be
shilled- is if you tell someone what you're willing to go to on an item
and then that person or their agent decides to take advantage of it. If
you told them that price, then you only have yourself to blame. End of
s!
tory.
On another subject - but related to
bidding in sales, I know Bruce likes to hype the fact that his sales
(by their virtue of being on ebay) don't charge buyer's premiums. This is a MINOR difference
between his method of conducting auctions and Heritage's (where they
charge a BP of 15%). I
think this has more to do with the fact that his sales are on ebay
where the hammer IS the price and BP's are NOT allowed. When Bruce conducted his sales
through Christie's and Howard Lowery's auctions, there were buyer's
premiums on those auctions as well.
If you guys can go out to dinner- where
waiters are involved in serving the meals- I think you can calculate
the tip (15%). Waiters
provide a service- just like the auction houses do. So, for example, if
you bid on something at Bruce's auction and are willing to pay $100,
then bid on the same thing at Heritage and bid $85.00. It's the same thing! And it's not difficult to
figure out. You're still
paying the (approximately) $100. So don't fall for that - "Gee, paying
a buyer's premium is a bad thing" routine.
And speaking of Heritage... the first
day has come to a close and there were quite a number of interesting
results. Many of the premier items brought premiere prices. For
example; the Out of the Past one sheet brought $11,500.00. Suspicion one sheet $6,325.00,
Crime School three sheet $5,750.00, Destry Rides Again three sheet
$10,925.00, Rainbow's End one sheet $3,450.00, (yes, westerns are doing
well again), Rebel Without a Cause 40x60 $5,750.00, High Sierra three
sheet $16,100.00 etc. These
were some outstanding results. That
being said, there were also some real bargains to be had. There was an Across the
Pacific half sheet for $184., Wagons Roll at Night one sheet for $230.,
an Adventures of Robin Hood portrait lobby card for $299., and many
more deals in Bogart, Hitchcock, etc.
- Proving that there were some real bargains in the sale. If you're not registered to
bid in this sale, then you're selling yourself short! There's still
time- call Heritage in the morning !
and
get on their phone bid lines. There's still one more day to the sale
and some great material is getting ready to be sold. Okay, I'm going to commit a
heresy here and suggest we all stop watching college football on
Saturday and check out the sale. (Go
Longhorns!)
I see Bruce launched his preview for
his upcoming sale in December. Lot's
of great material for sale once again! Admittedly it is a lot of the
same material we've seen over the years with a few new items we've
never seen before- but let's face it, those same old favorite classics
we've come to know and love are what we all want to collect anyway. So,
I expect his December sale will do as well as his Halloween sale did!
Thanks to Grey at Heritage and Bruce
for continuing to supple all of us collectors (and dealers) with great
material and keeping the hobby alive and well. And indeed, it is doing well.
Ron Moore
Cinema Icons
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Date: November 11, 2005 2:19:41 PM CST
Subject: Re: [MOPO] Mother of Mercy, is this the
end of Bruce?
Well there you have it folks, Bruce gets the last laugh ( so
he thinks ) Now how does it feel for all you decant ordinary hard
working folks, collectors and dealers? all that for this!!
I am so glad I am not ever bidding with bruce again. I've gone really
sour after He was suspended from eBay for wrong doings and admitted to
it. Knowing I have spent a lot of money over the years and have been
potentially shilled is just making me ill.
Don't flatter your self!!
Dario.
Bruce Hershenson wrote:
Hey
guys. I am flattered by all the attention you gave to my little
"business for sale" auction, but don't count me (or the hobby) out
just yet. eBay had a 10 cent listing day, so for 10 cents (and five
minutes of my time) I was able to let the world know that I am open
to selling my business, solely if the new buyer would continue to
operate it as I have for 17 years (I can think of nothing sadder for
me personally than seeing "eMoviePoster.com" run like the way many
major auctions are run, with outrageous buyers premiums, fuzzy
condition descriptions, high shipping costs, and hidden fees for
consignors).
As to whether the business is worth the price, how would any of you
know, since I did not state what was included in the sale? To me, I
just posted a "for sale" sign on the biggest bulletin board in the
world, and I have received several phone calls from serious buyers
who want to know more. And instead of paying a broker a percentage
of the sale to find buyers, I paid 10 cents! Pretty stupid of me, huh?
I don't know there is any chance that anyone will agree to my terms
on how they will have to run the business, and if not, I will just
continue chugging along as I have for the past 17 years, a "little
engine that could", trying my best to compete with billion dollar
corporations, who sometime seem to put profits above all else.
It is funny. When I first started selling posters full-time in 1989,
a lot of people accused me of being a "hit-and-run" artist, who would
"milk" the hobby for a year or two and then "move on" to another
hobby. Here it is 17 years later and just about all those critics
(and a whole lot of other "major" auctions and dealers) have
themselves "moved on", but somehow I am still doing pretty much the
same thing I did 17 years ago (except computerized and
super-charged). So PLEASE don't count me out just yet!
Bruce
eMoviePoster.com
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