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Guys, guys, guys...
It's not that simple, and we all know it. Yes, if you set a maximum bid and
say "I will pay no more" you cannot be run up OVER that amount by a shill --
but, dudes, you sure can be run up TO that amount, or darn close to it,
anyway.
To say that the shill doesn't know what the maximum bid you have in
mind may be is true, but that has never prevented shills in the past from
working the room, live or electronic, to see how high they could push
bidders who seem very interested in a particular item. That's why they're called
shills and why they've been around auctions since the days when dinosaurs
ruled the earth. Sometimes the shill guesses wrong, pushes to hard and gets
stuck. But a good shill... one with experience who knows the market and the
bidding audience he's working on, can get a pretty good feel for what he can get
away with.
So, a genuine bidder can end up paying much more for an item than he might
otherwise have paid if there is expert, experienced shilling going on, let's not
pretend that can't happen. I presume the possibility of this having happened is
what Dario is upset about. Understandably. But unfortunately that's a
danger in any auction -- shilling can happen at anyone's auction. It can happen
without the seller even being aware of it, if it turns out to be a conspiracy
between the shill and the consigner, rather than the shill and the seller.
Kirby, Ron and others are correct in saying that the only thing you can do
about shilling -- since it can't be stopped, is almost impossible to prove, and
there's no way to know if it really is happening or if you are simply up against
another genuine bidder who also wants the item -- is to stick to your maximum
bid and not let yourself get pushed up any further than you are really willing
to pay.
Does this mean that you will lose a lot of auctions? You betcha. Some
of them you will lose to genuine bidders. Others you will stick the shills with.
But there's always another auction, so all you can do is try to keep from
getting carried away in a last-minute bidding wars (whatever the cause).
Oddly, the sniper programs have turned out to be a shill's worst
enemy.
-- JR
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005
1:34
Subject: Re: [MOPO] Bruces' sale and
Heritage.
Ron and all,
I've expressed these same opinions both on MOPO and on the late Movie
Poster
Talk about shilling many times. You cannot be run up if you
exercise your own discipline
in bidding. Decide what you are willing / want to pay ahead of time
and stick to your plan.
Because you cannot control all this other stuff. It's the only way
to buy something for the
price you want at auction. There is no other way.
Kirby McDaniel
www.movieart.net
On Nov 11, 2005, at 11:40 PM, Ron Moore wrote:
Sorry to see that Dario feels bad about being
possibly "run up" or "shilled" at auctions. Frankly, i've been bidding in
auctions for so many years that I have a different perspective on it.
The only way anyone can be shilled or run up is IF
they allow it to happen to themselves. Let's face it, if you want to bid
on something, you have a price you're willing to pay. If you get it for that
price- Great! If you get it
for less- even better! But if
you end up paying MORE for it than you were originally intending to go, well
that's you're own fault. No
one holds a gun to your head and says, "Pay more or I'll pull the trigger."
If you bid more, then you're
willing to pay more. No
"Shill" at any time knows what amount you're willing to go to, so if you get
"run up" then you only allowed yourself to get run up. Getting something for less than
what you wanted to pay or were willing to pay is not an entitlement or
right. The only true way you
can be shilled- is if you tell someone what you're willing to go to on an
item and then that person or their agent decides to take advantage of it. If
you told them that price, then you only have yourself to blame. End of
s!
tory.
On another subject - but related to bidding in
sales, I know Bruce likes to hype the fact that his sales (by their virtue
of being on ebay) don't charge buyer's premiums. This is a MINOR difference between
his method of conducting auctions and Heritage's (where they charge a BP of
15%). I think this has more
to do with the fact that his sales are on ebay where the hammer IS the price
and BP's are NOT allowed.
When Bruce conducted his sales through Christie's and Howard Lowery's
auctions, there were buyer's premiums on those auctions as well.
If you guys can go out to dinner- where waiters are
involved in serving the meals- I think you can calculate the tip (15%). Waiters provide a service- just
like the auction houses do. So, for example, if you bid on something at
Bruce's auction and are willing to pay $100, then bid on the same thing at
Heritage and bid $85.00. It's
the same thing! And it's not
difficult to figure out.
You're still paying the (approximately) $100. So don't fall for that
- "Gee, paying a buyer's premium is a bad thing" routine.
And speaking of Heritage... the first day has come
to a close and there were quite a number of interesting results. Many of the
premier items brought premiere prices. For example; the Out of the Past one
sheet brought $11,500.00.
Suspicion one sheet $6,325.00, Crime School three sheet $5,750.00,
Destry Rides Again three sheet $10,925.00, Rainbow's End one sheet
$3,450.00, (yes, westerns are doing well again), Rebel Without a Cause 40x60
$5,750.00, High Sierra three sheet $16,100.00 etc. These were some outstanding
results. That being said,
there were also some real bargains to be had. There was an Across the Pacific
half sheet for $184., Wagons Roll at Night one sheet for $230., an
Adventures of Robin Hood portrait lobby card for $299., and many more deals
in Bogart, Hitchcock, etc. -
Proving that there were some real bargains in the sale. If you're not registered to bid in
this sale, then you're selling yourself short! There's still time- call
Heritage in the morning !
and
get on their phone bid lines. There's still one more day to the sale and
some great material is getting ready to be sold. Okay, I'm going to commit a heresy
here and suggest we all stop watching college football on Saturday and check
out the sale. (Go
Longhorns!)
I see Bruce launched his preview for his upcoming
sale in December. Lot's of
great material for sale once again! Admittedly it is a lot of the same
material we've seen over the years with a few new items we've never seen
before- but let's face it, those same old favorite classics we've come to
know and love are what we all want to collect anyway. So, I expect his
December sale will do as well as his Halloween sale did!
Thanks to Grey at Heritage and Bruce for continuing
to supple all of us collectors (and dealers) with great material and keeping
the hobby alive and well. And
indeed, it is doing well.
Ron Moore
Cinema Icons
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Date: November 11, 2005 2:19:41 PM CST
Subject: Re: [MOPO] Mother of Mercy, is this the end of
Bruce?
Well there you
have it folks, Bruce gets the last laugh ( so he thinks ) Now how does it
feel for all you decant ordinary hard working folks, collectors and dealers?
all that for this!!
I am so glad I am not ever bidding with bruce
again. I've gone really sour after He was suspended from eBay for wrong
doings and admitted to it. Knowing I have spent a lot of money over the
years and have been potentially shilled is just making me ill.
Don't
flatter your self!!
Dario.
Bruce Hershenson wrote:
Hey
guys. I am flattered by all the attention you gave to my little
"business for sale" auction, but don't count me (or the hobby) out
just yet. eBay had a 10 cent listing day, so for 10 cents (and
five
minutes of my time) I was able to let the world know that I am
open
to selling my business, solely if the new buyer would continue to
operate it as I have for 17 years (I can think of nothing sadder for
me personally than seeing "eMoviePoster.com" run like the way many
major auctions are run, with outrageous buyers premiums, fuzzy
condition descriptions, high shipping costs, and hidden fees for
consignors).
As to whether the business is worth the price, how
would any of you
know, since I did not state what was included in the
sale? To me, I
just posted a "for sale" sign on the biggest
bulletin board in the
world, and I have received several phone calls
from serious buyers
who want to know more. And instead of paying
a broker a percentage
of the sale to find buyers, I paid 10
cents! Pretty stupid of me, huh?
I don't know there is any
chance that anyone will agree to my terms
on how they will have to run
the business, and if not, I will just
continue chugging along as I
have for the past 17 years, a "little
engine that could", trying my
best to compete with billion dollar
corporations, who sometime seem to
put profits above all else.
It is funny. When I first started
selling posters full-time in 1989,
a lot of people accused me of being
a "hit-and-run" artist, who would
"milk" the hobby for a year or two
and then "move on" to another
hobby. Here it is 17 years later
and just about all those critics
(and a whole lot of other "major"
auctions and dealers) have
themselves "moved on", but somehow I am
still doing pretty much the
same thing I did 17 years ago (except
computerized and
super-charged). So PLEASE don't count me out
just yet!
Bruce
eMoviePoster.com
Visit the MoPo Mailing
List Web Site at www.filmfan.com
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