Ron said to dmb:
I feel it is important to Establish just what is meant by Pre-intellect in
relation to: 1. Pure experience 2. Pre-conceptual 3. Pre-reflective 4. symbol
creation 5. Symbol recognition 6. symbol manipulation
dmb says:
As I understand it, the term "pre-intellectual" is equivalent to one, two and
three. They all refer to the same basic idea. They all refer to a type of
experience that is prior to four, five and six. The creation, recognition,
manipulation or any other use of symbols is an intellectual activity, part of
our conceptualizations and occur in reflection. So all of the terms are related
to pre-intellectual experience. The first half are and the second half are not
pre-intellectual. Its really that simple.
Ron said:
...When Pirsig termed INTELLECT as symbol manipulation for purposes of economy
of thought, he kind of confused the issue of SOM. Does he term SOM as an
intellectual pattern or a logic pattern? Are the two terms synonymous in this
description? ..This being said, just where the hell does SOM leave off and pure
experience begin? ...It seems plain to me that SOM is a great deal more than
an intellectual pattern in our present western culture it has fused with the
culture. I think this is why it can be traced linearly in time as an
intellectual pattern but not conceptually because it has become enmeshed in the
culture.
dmb says:
As Nietzsche says, Christianity is Platonism for the people. Yea, its downright
tangled up in the culture. There's no doubt. Pirsig isn't the only one who says
it began with philosophy or that it should end now. You can add Rorty and
Heidegger to Nietzsche and Pirsig. They all complain about SOM as a
metaphysical assumption, as a theory about the structure of reality, which is
where it becomes a problem. SOM and the MOQ are both metaphysical systems.
They're rival intellectual descriptions. They both use logic and attempt to
conceptualize how it all hangs together, etc.
[Ron]
Only SOM is now cultural whereas MOQ is not. Not yet anyway, but the past
20-30 yrs there has been a change in it's direction.
Dmb:
This capacity to manipulate symbols emerges from their social level use and in
that sense the social level is prior to the intellectual level, but this is not
at all what I mean by pre-intellectual experience. If that were the case
James's pure experience would be equivalent to the social level and what a mess
that would be. Instead, pure experience is not only pre-intellectual, it is
also pre-social.
{Ron]
Social symbols are involved in perception. They help to give meaning
And understanding to experience. Pure experience and social symbol
Seem to compose awareness in a 1:1 mixture.
Dmb:
Think of it this way. You could say animals have nothing but pure experience.
(I'm not equating with instinct, however.) They never conceptualize experience
in any way. They don't verbalize their experience. But they have experience and
usually they respond to it immediately and appropriately all the same.
[Ron]
Many species have social orders, Dogs, Primates to name just the most evident.
Does this mean they have a remedial form of symbol relation?
If so they must have some crude form of intellect.
Dmb:
We're animals and we have that going on too. The social and intellectual
levels emerge from this and this world of symbols allows us to respond to
experience in ways that animal don't or can't, but this does not replace or
erase the role of pure experience.
[Ron]
Animals awareness of pure experience is more immediate because the
Social symbols are less complex and apply more directly to pure survival.
Dmb:
It works to guide activity at any level, biological, social or intellectual.
Its pre-everything, so to speak.
[Ron]
Pure experience is pre-experience...it almost sounds like it fits.
Thanks,
Dmb
No, Thank you. I am grateful for your time and attention.
-R
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