[Marsha] Wow! Did you just wake up from a bad nap? [Krimel] No, I am grumpy from banging my head against a wall.
[Marsha] And, what the heck are facts? [Krimel] I like to think of them as static patterns of value. [Peter] The quality is filtered first through the inorganic and finally, if it gets that far, an intellect; in this sense Value is pre-intellectual. [Krimel] Static quality is filtered in the sense that as time passes it persists. This is true at any level or from any perspective. I am saying that the ability of human beings to perceive Value is encoded in our DNA. [Peter] However natural selection isn't chancy and organised systems are not deterministic. [Krimel] Perhaps you mean that organized system can be deterministic but unpredictable. But evolution is all about chance and the probability of traits being manifest in successive generations. [gav] things seem 'top-down' or 'bottom-up' in the world of opposites. duality = polarity. in unity, 'top'' and 'bottom' are complementary aspects of the same dynamic principle (tao, quality etc). [Krimel] There are two problems with this. First the fact of greyness does not mean there is no black and white. Seeing the relationships or union of opposites does not make opposites alike. Secondly in this instance of top down and bottom up we are looking at the history and growth of life on this planet. It did not begin with complex organisms that have been deteriorating. It started with a congenial mixture of chemicals bathed in sunlight. The influx of energy into the system has produced increased complexity or life. Entropy limits the direction that time can run, especially in this case. It is not as though some future state or Omega point can orchestrate events in the past or present. [gav] therefore things are ultimately neither 'top-down' nor 'bottom-up'. they are both and neither (tetralemma). the MOQ's static levels are of tertiary import; of secondary import is the dynamic/static split; of primary import is the notion that Quality=reality. [Krimel] As long as time continues to run forward, which I suspect it will for the foreseeable future, your first statement makes no sense. The first point of the MoQ is the Quality = Tao which is undefined. It is precisely as undefined as the future is unknowable. It is often surprising. The second point is the SQ/DQ spit. Again this is just Yin and Yang, active and passive, plus and minus, Taoism sees reality as essentially binary. Pirsig make a big point of the importance of the first metaphysical cut. He insists that it defines in some sense every cut that follows. True enough but so does the second cut and the third. Each division we make partially determines subsequent cuts. I agree that tertiary cuts are of secondary importance and whatever set of cuts are chosen should be judged on the results they produce. Often these judgments are made based on the level of detail one is concerned with. [gav] when we get obsessed with the tertiary level we lose the focus that the secondary and primary levels give us. result: endless argument over the same stuff. if you don't undersand the primary and secondary principles then the tertiary principles - the MOQ's static levels - will not be of use to you. [Krimel] Too right, mate, too right. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
