krimel, i don't want to have an argument krimel, that really just bores me. i am trying to help you understand new ideas. this is a difficult process, especially when you react *against* my explanations, rather than seeking a dialectical engagement that may well lead to a mutually clarified understanding.
if you have any genuine questions i will do my best to answer them. gav Krimel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [gav:] evolution is an interesting word. L évolvere - to unroll, open, unfold. to evolve is to develop. 'develop' implies a movement towards a more complete, expanded or refined state. unroll, unfold, open.....literary analogies. evolution is the plot developing....your own life and the cosmos itself . story. myth. [Krimel] That is the nature of language. It is narrative. It is analogy. It is intersubjective. Are you suggesting we should use ESP instead? My God man, we can't even use bold face in these correspondences. [gav:] black doesn't exist without white, that is the point. no bottom-up without top-down. [Krimel] Understanding the union of opposites does not dissolve the opposites it simply enhances our understanding of their relationship. [krimel:] Secondly in this instance of top down and bottom up we are looking at the history and growth of life on this planet. It did not begin with complex organisms that have been deteriorating. It started with a congenial mixture of chemicals bathed in sunlight. The influx of energy into the system has produced increased complexity or life. [gav:] i have read the textbooks too. these are hypotheses. different contexts produce different hypotheses. good science is careful science. good science is science done with a multi-context awareness and the awareness of how these contexts interrelate...how different descriptions complement and augment each other, rather than thinking you can only choose one that is 'true'. [Krimel] Evolution is not a hypothesis. [krimel:]Entropy limits the direction that time can run, especially in this case. It is not as though some future state or Omega point can orchestrate events in the past or present. [gav] every law in physics is reversible with respect to time, excepting (it is said) the second law of thermodynamics, to which you refer. william james sidis' book, 'the animate and the inanimate' takes this very issue up and comes to the conclusion that the second law of thermodynamics is reversible also. that is things run down *and* things run up. ie entropy does not limit time, because not all states are entropic. for instance life works against entropy. life takes the simple and makes it more complex - bigger, better. the cell is immortal and it has built a mighty impressive world. [Krimel] So let me get this straight. Just because William James Sidas speculated that entropy "might" be reversible, you are ready to throw it out the window? Since you are able to use a dictionary try looking up discernment. If you had understood the textbooks you are alleged to have read, you would know that life does not work against entropy. Not even a little bit. [gav, earlier] therefore things are ultimately neither 'top-down' nor 'bottom-up'. they are both and neither (tetralemma). the MOQ's static levels are of tertiary import; of secondary import is the dynamic/static split; of primary import is the notion that Quality=reality. [Krimel] You actually have the gall to draw a conclusion from this? Gutsy, I must say. [krimel:] The first point of the MoQ is the Quality = Tao which is undefined. It is precisely as undefined as the future is unknowable. It is often surprising. [gav:] Tao/Quality *is* knowable, not definable. Quality is experienced. [Krimel] And experience is not "known" until after it has been experienced. [krimel] The second point is the SQ/DQ spit. Again this is just Yin and Yang, active and passive, plus and minus, Taoism sees reality as essentially binary. [gav:]Taoism sees reality as binary? who told you that.... Taoism is a dynamic monism. a mystical monism. The Tao *produces* yin/yang - one produces two. Tao/ Quality - undivided, dynamic. [Krimel] Taoism sees the Tao as undefined and undivided but it sees the 10,000 things in an essentially binary way; mixtures of this and that. Pirsig does the same thing by mislabeling the Tao as Quality the focusing on the interplay of static and dynamic. [Krimel] Pirsig make a big point of the importance of the first metaphysical cut. He insists that it defines in some sense every cut that follows. True enough but so does the second cut and the third. Each division we make partially determines subsequent cuts. [gav] more important is what you have before you cut. [Krimel] If you knew what it was them you probably wouldn't need to cut it at all. 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