At 10:57 AM 12/22/2007, you wrote: >Marsha said: >My original question (borrowed from Tittivulus) in this thread >was: So why not explore the notion of a distinct 's/o experience' >as a working hypothesis so you can proceed to explore the various >components of such an experience (components, not parts). Wouldn't >that be a better, more MOQ'ish method of inquiry? > >dmb says: >I don't understand. What is a "distinct s/o experience"? What sort >of "components" are we talking about here and how are they different >from "parts"? I suspect that Tittivulus is only mocking us.
Greetings David, I envisioned a "distinct s/o experience" as being an experience confined only to subjects and objects (dualism). Distinct from all other kinds of experiences we might suggest, with an emphasis on 'experience' rather than a thing. My understanding is that parts are separate things, while components are interrelated systems. Tittivulus MAY be mocking us. It won't be the first time I've been mocked, and it won't be the last time. If I can learn something, I'm happy. Or he could be pointing to the ridiculousness of asking such question, and pointing to the whole picture, the Tao. But it did dawn on me that to ask questions from a 'experience' point-of-view may have something to offer. I'm checking it out. Actually, it did happen to me recently when I was confronted with a problem. I couldn't make any sense out of it. I finally broke it down into biological, social & intellectual patterns, it made made better sense. >Marsha said: >At this point, it seems that the answer is yes. Because in doing so >it becomes clear that there are two components to the s/o >experience: an Intellectual Level component and a Social Level >component. It is a more MOQ'ish hypothesis because the discussion >is then centered on experience (value) rather than things, and >offers a broader point-of-view. > >dmb says: >Well, radical empiricism rejects standard empiricism because it >isn't empirical enough. So I'd certainly agree that a serious >emphasis on experience is very MOQish but I don't understand what >sort of experience or components we're talking about here. Value is experience. Right? So I'm thinking that the 's/o experience' has two basic experiencial components: social & intellectual. Exploring them separately and then their relationship seems to make sense. >Marsha said: >The purpose of the Intellectual Level is to sustain and improve the >Social Level. It seems to me that in the past the SOM was an >Intellectual pattern that sustained and improved the Social >Level. Now the Intellectual Level is promoting an even better >improvement by way of the MOQ's value-based perspective. Understood >this way, there seems to be no need for a MOQ level. The MOQ, which >is an intellectual pattern, is just performing its purpose of >improving the Social Level. > >dmb says: >Right, but I think Pirsig's diagnosis of history, if you will, says >that in modern times the intellectual level has aligned itself with >the biological. Its attack on the social level was in part a >political necessity but intellect developed in a certain direction >as a result. Its not just that scientific materialism tends to >dismiss values and morals as "merely subjective" beliefs and such, >but also that science, knowledge and technology all become focused >almost exclusively on the basic biological needs. More food, more >safety, more comfort, more, more, more stuff. Even growth in >measured quantitatively rather than qualitatively. We're talking >about the objectification and exploitation of the whole planet and >all the creatures on it. I think the MOQ is saying that intellect >has evolved from its historic roots and has to serve life in terms >of something higher than creature comforts. And its relationship to >the social level needs adjustment along these lines. Yes, RMP did state that in modern times there is a struggle going between the intellectual level and the social level. But he also stated that the _purpose_ of the Intellectual Level is to sustain and improve the Social Level. I agree with you, the situation is a mess. Isn't it that the MOQ will hopefully realign the Intellectual Level with it's primary purpose. Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
