> [Dan] > I agree it's intellectually appealing to learn new ideas and to fill our > days chasing empty concepts. I think the MOQ says that that takes us away > from Dynamic Quality, however. It doesn't bring us closer. Perhaps that is > what the literature on the Tao and Buddhism is telling you. > > [Krimel] > Do tell. Where does Pirsig say that the pursuit of knowledge takes us away > from Dynamic Quality?
[Dan's list of quote] "Thought is not a path to reality. It sets obstacles in that path because when you try to use thought to approach something that is prior to thought your thinking does not carry you toward that something. It carries you away from it. To define something is to subordinate it to a tangle of intellectual relationships. And when you do that you destroy real understanding." "The purpose of mystic meditation is not to remove oneself from experience but to bring one's self closer to it by eliminating stale, confusing, static, intellectual attachments of the past." "While sustaining biological and social patterns Kill all intellectual patterns. Kill them completely And then follow Dynamic Quality And morality will be served." "Strictly speaking, the creation of any metaphysics is an immoral act since it's a lower form of evolution, intellect, trying to devour a higher mystic one." [Krimel] I addressed much of this in my response to Dave. The first concerns Pirsig's discussion of why mystics would object to what he is doing but I notice that he does it anyway. It comes just before one of my favorite quotes from Lila: "Since a metaphysics is essentially a kind of dialectical definition and since Quality is essentially outside definition, this means that a 'Metaphysics of Quality' is essentially a contradiction in terms, a logical absurdity. It would be almost like a mathematical definition of randomness." If only he had run with it. Number two is an indictment of static thinking not the pursuit of knowledge. Number three is an indictment of static thinking as well. How you come to regard the pursuit if knowledge as static is a mystery to me. Perhaps that has been you experienced, it certainly has not been mine. Knowledge only becomes static when you cease to pursue it and settle for what you have. Number four come just before he finds the baby doll and realizes that could be some find of idol which sets him into a return to anthropology and a brief foray into Joseph Campbell. Both strike me as involving the pursuit of knowledge in fact if Pirsig did not devote attention to the pursuit of knowledge he would not have had much to say regardless of whatever mystical objections he need to overcome to proceed. On the other hand he seems to embrace both the pursuit if knowledge and science when he says, "As long as you're inside a logical, coherent universe of thought you can't escape metaphysics. Logical positivism's criteria for 'meaningfulness' were pure metaphysics, he thought. But it didn't matter. The Metaphysics of Quality not only passes the logical positivists' tests for meaningfulness, it passes them with the highest marks." Or here: "The Metaphysics of Quality subscribes to what is called empiricism. It claims that all legitimate human knowledge arises from the senses or by thinking about what the senses provide." Or here: "The greatest benefit of this substitution of Value' for 'causation' and 'substance' is that it allows an integration of physical science with other areas of experience that have been traditionally considered outside the scope of scientific thought." Or here: "Phaedrus had always believed science is a search for truth. A real scientist is not supposed to sell out that goal to corporations who are searching for mere profit. Or, if he had to sell out in order to live that was nothing to be happy about. These fraternity brothers of his acted like they never heard of science as truth. Phaedrus had suddenly seen a tentacle of the Giant reaching out and he was the only one who could see it." [Krimel] I will grant you that Pirsig rails against a particular view of science, but his ranting always seems aimed at making for a better more inclusive science not abandoning it. But here are some quotes from ZMM where Pirsig is much more charitable toward science and technology. I think ZMM is the better of Pirsig's two books both as a novel and as a work of philosophy. You should read it Dan I think you might like it. "'Science' is often romantic. It does not proceed by reason or by laws. It proceeds by feeling, intuition and esthetic conscience." "I told Chris the other night that Phædrus spent his entire life pursuing a ghost. That was true. The ghost he pursued was the ghost that underlies all of technology, all of modern science, all of Western thought. It was the ghost of rationality itself." "In the temple of science are many mansions -- and various indeed are they that dwell therein and the motives that have led them there. Many take to science out of a joyful sense of superior intellectual power; science is their own special sport to which they look for vivid experience and the satisfaction of ambition; many others are to be found in the temple who have offered the products of their brains on this altar for purely utilitarian purposes. Were an angel of the Lord to come and drive all the people belonging to these two categories out of the temple, it would be noticeably emptier but there would still be some men of both present and past times left inside -- . If the types we have just expelled were the only types there were, the temple would never have existed any more than one can have a wood consisting of nothing but creepers -- those who have found favor with the angel -- are somewhat odd, uncommunicative, solitary fellows, really less like each other than the hosts of the rejected." "Unlike the multitude of romantics who are disturbed about the chaotic changes science and technology force upon the human spirit, Phædrus, with his scientifically trained classic mind, was able to do more than just wring his hands with dismay, or run away, or condemn the whole situation broadside without offering any solutions. As I've said, he did in the end offer a number of solutions, but the problem was so deep and so formidable and complex that no one really understood the gravity of what he was resolving, and so failed to understand or misunderstood what he said." Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
