All Moqtalk, Gav and Steve here.
This thread triggered a lot of posts and I haven't got a chance to
comment them all. Gav opened the show on Jan. 8.
> gravity *didn't* exist as a concept at all prior to newton. quality
> *did* exist as a concept before pirsig: pirsig helped us understand this
> concept of quality at a much deeper level than we previously did. your
> analogy is invalid.
That easy? The idea was that Gravity-as-Quality was from before
everything, language included so concepts is no issue.
But I agree. Inside the MOQ Quality is from eternity, but Pirsig of
LILA seemingly did not find this impressive enough and backed
down into SOM with the MOQ just a theory about Quality instead
of following up his own insight: SOM or science (with Newton the
proxy) created a new reality. The MOQ creates a greater reality
where SOM is a mere sub-set, the highest, yet subordinate to the
overall DQ/SQ metaphysics. Any attempt to circumvent this is
doomed.
-------------
Steve commented on 8 January:
> In that passage Pirsig demonstrates that, based on the SOM premise, since
> the Laws of Gravity were neither mind nor matter prior to Newton, an
> SOMist would have to conclude that they did not exist. Most people not
> being true SOMists (does such an animal really exist?) would find such a
> conclusion unsatisfactory and be open to a "Quality" explanation.
Bo:
You seem bent on objecting, but the said passage simply shows
that to a SOMist the idea that Newton's explanation of gravity
came to be with Newton is untenable. To him (the somist) nature
is unchanging, indifferent , it just revealed one of its laws to
Newton. The fact that the said law was conceived by Newton's
mind - and thus subjective - is no difficulty (at first glance) to a
somist.
Steve:
> I think Pirsig wants to show that scientific laws are aesthetic
> intellectual creations rather than discoveries of pre-existing
> objective facts.
No doubt it is Pirsig's intention, but an intellect that makes
discoveries about pre-existing facts .. about the lower levels is
SOM. The true 4th level is the static value of the notion of "pre-
existing objective facts".
Steve:
> In Lila we find that gravity is an inorganic pattern of value and
> Newton's Laws of Gravity is an intellectual pattern of value...
Yes, that's LILA's presentation, but the said passage in ZAMM
shows that science created the notion of a matter reality that the
mind of mankind (Newton) wrestled secrets from. i.e: SOM. It
(the passage) further shows that SOM has got us so firmly in its
grip that we are incapable of understanding it as a creation. But
instead of following this up in LILA by saying that the MOQ is a
greater creation (that has the former as its own top static value)
he confirms SOM's grip on himself by postulating an "objective"
Quality that the MOQ is a mere "subjective" theory about, and
from this the MOQ won't recover until the SOL is realized..
Steve:
> ... It is an MOQ premise that that inorganic patterns evolved prior to
> biological, social, and intellectual patterns of value.
You are right, but if you read "Lila's Child" you will find this
(Annotation 97):
"Within the MOQ, the idea that static patterns of value
starts with the inorganic level is considered to be a good
idea. But the MOQ itself doesn't start before sentience.
The MOQ, like science, starts with human experience.
Remember the early talks in ZMM about Newton's law of
gravity. Scientific laws without people to write them are a
scientific impossibility."
Pirsig obviously remembers the Newton example, but instead of
facing it in the (up) above said manner, he tries the impossible
exercise of being both inside and outside the MOQ. The
annotation continues
"It is important for an understanding of the MOQ to see
that although common sense dictates that inorganic
nature comes first, actually "common sense" - which is a
set of ideas - has to come first. ...etc.
SOM's idealism as Quality!! No way! The MOQ has no more
affinity for idealism than for materialism. The source for these
most subversive utterings is the faulty way of integrating SOM
(that of the two lower levels as objects ....etc.) instead of the
SOLway.
IMO
Bo
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