Quoting Christoffer Ivarsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > P> [Chris] > >> What the hell is this? This throwing around mindless quotes might work > >> with > >> someone who doesn't actually study history and knows nothing about it > >> (200 > >> years, now where did THAT rabbit come from?). I mean, I see your point, > >> but > >> you have no real arguments, you just have random quotes that doesn't add > >> up. > >> > >> Have a look at this one for example: > >> > Ben Franklin also said: "I think the best way of doing good to the > >> > poor, > >> > is > >> > not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of > >> > it." > > [Platt] > > Mindless? Ben Franklin is mindless? Surely you jest. > > Oh, quit it. I never said that.
You said "mindless quotes." I quoted Ben Franklin. What other conclusion am I suppose to draw? > > [Chris] > >> Well, what happened was that the poor, the workers, the farmers etc took > >> the > >> initiative to create a political movement to create a more humane and > >> safer > >> society for themselves. This was pretty much achieved as soon as > >> everybody > >> gained the right to vote (something they didn't do by doing nothing I'll > >> tell you). This is the beginning of the Scandinavian model, the success > >> of > >> which is undisputed. > > > Hardly "undisputed." > > Not "undisputed" perhaps (since people like you dispute it :P), but it > works, and people are happy with it. > > [Platt] > >According to a study by the Swedish Institute of Trade, > > the "median household income in Sweden at the end of the 1990s was > > equivalent > > to $26,800 compared with a median of $39,400 for U.S. households." The > > study > > concluded: average income in Sweden is less than the average income for > > black > > Americans which comprise the lowest income group in the U.S. > > This could to someone who just glance at it seem like really something. But > unfortunately I know the nature of statistic, and this is yet again a great > example of nothingness. First of all, "Black Americans are bunched up > together as one homogeny group. As pointed out before, there is a great deal > of difference between Oprah and a black worker in the ghetto. And Median: > > Wiki: > "In probability theory and statistics, a median is described as the number > separating the higher half of a sample, a population, or a probability > distribution, from the lower half. The median of a finite list of numbers > can be found by arranging all the observations from lowest value to highest > value and picking the middle one. If there is an even number of > observations, the median is not unique, so one often takes the mean of the > two middle values. > > Example: X,Y,Z median= Y Example: W,X,Y,Z median = mean(X, Y) = (X+Y)/2" > > So you see it doesn't really say anything about this particular issue. And > this is a measure of income, only. This doesn't take into account the > expenses. I mean, since we get h whole lot of more stuff paid for us - > Public healthcare, schools, education and social welfare - this isn't taken > into account. Purely economically speaking the US is a stronger economy, > that has more of both super-rich people and super-poor people. So, this > statistic doesn't really say anything about the Quality of life within each > state. And that is the important thing. OK. I hope you will so inform the Swedish Institute of Trade. But you realize I hope that all those goodies paid to you come out of your pocket, or forced out of someone else's pocket. Your taxes aren't voluntary are they? > [chris] > >> So then you have a system where people can get cheap, > >> good healthcare, good education, and that, because there is a social > >> safety > >> net, reduces crime far better then in those countries that haven't. > >> What > >> happens is that overall one get's a more stable base to build upon. And I > >> am > >> sorry to disappoint you, but within this model there is no repression of > >> the > >> mind or body, and yes, there is a free market and all that - it works > >> fine > >> as long as one realizes that everything isn't black and white. I might > >> also > >> add that at the moment (since 2006) we have a right-wing government (you > >> would probably call them liberals anyway) but not even they want to > >> remove > >> the system, only modify it. No one wants to remove the system, and the > >> worst > >> thing anyone can be accused of in a political debate is to what to have > >> it > >> the way it is in the US (now that the Soviet is gone). > > [Platt] > > See above. Also, what is your tax rate? > > Higher than yours because we Value things like > Public healthcare, schools, education and social welfare. Quite simple. OK. I value liberty more. > >> I'm just saying, things aren't black and white, either or. The middle way > >> is > >> almost always the best. > > [Platt] > > When it comes to defending individual liberty, I don't think the middle > > way is > > almost always the best. Sometimes you have to stand and fight. Don't you > > agree? > > Sometimes, sometimes not. Good. Sometimes you do. We agree. ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
