[Bo]
Agree about ambiguity and also about "mind" emerging from the
second level, but only in the sense that intellect's S/O glasses
made us see that the said "manipulation of experience" as going
on in (a) mind. The paradoxes emerging from intellect as SOM
has no relevance for the MOQ.
[Krimel]
First intellect does not have glasses. Your habit of thinking this way is
becoming the kind of illusory construct Pirsig warns against. Second as
Tomasello claims it is not the awareness of (a) mind so much as awareness of
other minds like our own that produces the change.
> [Krimel]
> As near as I can tell, current thinking is that folks with mental
> capacities identical to our own left Africa about 50,000 years ago.
> What distinguishes us from them are primarily improvements in mental
> techniques for organizing and processing information.
[Bo]
The said time corresponds to early 3rd. level (there surely were
humanoids living in tribes for millions of years, but this wasn't
social level proper). If they weren't social level inhabitants
(language f.ex) they surely lacked in "organizing and processing
information"
[Krimel]
Humans are social primates. "Social primate" is basically a redundant term.
In fact human social pattern to this day are not qualitatively different
from other great apes.
[Bo]
When a baby is born it surely has all sense organs but no input from
these tells it about living in a cosmos. It's a purely biological
organism craving food and warmth, but soon its social self will
emerge and by and by its intellectual self that will learn
about cosmos.
[Krimel]
Human infants to not enter the world fully developed. Even their senses,
especially vision, have not matured. As they develop, with in days and weeks
it becomes apparent that they are biologically equipped to interact socially
with their caregivers. They soak up input from the environment at a rate
they will never again begin to equal. Their capacity to do this is purely
biological. The stimuli they encounter, mostly their caregivers, shape the
raw materials available to build with.
As I say before infants are biologically prepare to construct an internal
representation of the external world. The building boxes they use are
sensory input into biological systems.
[Bo]
I see, you speaking about "inorganic" and "biology" weren't the Q-
levels but the ordinary scientific classifications. Anyway the levels
and their struggles are important for MOQ's explanatory power.
[Krimel]
That's because I see no difference between the two.
[Bo]
Regarding tribe you may be right, apes live in tribes, but klan
presupposes ancestry and I doubt if other than homo sapient
knows that.
[Krimel
There is evidence of kinship grouping among other social primates.
{Bo]
I don't think you get the idea of the level spawning
more and more complex patterns until one gets too complex to
be contained by the parent. Otherwise why wouldn't animals start
to form nations, states...etc? I'll say because they lack the more
basic social patterns and these will not materialize unless the
social level is reached which takes control of biology.
[Krimel]
I see complexity evolving all over the place, we call this increase in
complexity 'quantitative' up until some usually arbitrary point at which we
decide it is 'qualitative' and call it a new level. That is how taxonomies
grow.
Herd animals do what you describe limited only by food supply. But in
general animals don't do this because they are not biologically equipped
with nervous systems complex enough to accommodate that level of abstract
organization.
[Bo]
These explanations sounds plausible at first, but like the
inorganic-biological transition - where no explanation how life
emerged exist - the biological-social transition is just as
mysterious, but to SOM it's about animals getting more and more
able-bodied and -minded until Nobel Laureates emerge.
[Krimel]
In almost any set of ideas you can come up with the really interesting stuff
happens at the edges, boundaries, phase transitions. In any taxonomic system
the edges are somewhat arbitrary as in Pirsig's decision to include organic
chemistry in the inorganic level and to omit non-human social groups from
the social level and his failure to make clear what the intellectual level
even is, beyond hoping we know it when we see it.
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