Quoting Heather Perella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Platt, > > Bo has already answered and said something like, > "I can see your trying to meet me half-way, but > without the intellectual level being SOM only I can't > agree." Bo's invested so much in the SOL > (intellect=SOM only route) that for him to back down > on this would be decades of argument wasted on his > behalf. It would indeed take much meekness on his > part to take this step. > > > SA
SA, Thanks. I must have missed Bo's response. Platt > > > > Ron: > > > Excellent . > > > > Yes, excellent. I wonder if Bo concurs? > > > > Platt > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > Behalf Of Arlo > > > Bensinger > > > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 3:07 PM > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: Re: [MD] Science and the MOQ > > > > > > Hi Ian, > > > > > > No, I don't think we disagree. I personally like > > > strange loops and recursions, my point I suppose > > > was that we have to accept this circularity and > > > its limitations (and benefits) when we start to > > > define something according to itself. > > > > > > There are certainly, as Ron points out, > > > "intellectual patterns" we talk about here that > > > are descriptions of the MOQ. But a metaphysics > > > (any metaphysics, I would say) is more of an > > > orientation, a "Way", the active construction of > > > the system in the first place. SOM runs into the > > > same self-referential question, is SOM-itself a > > > "subject" or an "object"? I'd say "neither", but > > > a way of framing the world INTO subjects and > > objects. > > > > > > You see the "problem", of course. Any system that > > > "divides" the cosmos can't be contained within > > > any of its divisions. By definition, it is above > > those divisions. > > > > > > Pirsig mentions this in ZMM. "Quality is the > > > continuing stimulus which our environment puts > > > upon us to create the world in which we live. All > > > of it. Every last bit of it. ... Now, to take > > > that which has caused us to create the world, and > > > include it within the world we have created, is > > > clearly impossible. That is why Quality cannot be > > > defined. If we do define it we are defining > > > something less than Quality itself." (ZMM) > > > > > > I'm obviously on a "verb" kick here, and its not > > > entirely Ulysses S. Grant that is to blame, > > > although that quote sums up a lot of what I think > > > in very few words. Pirsig, by the way, also > > > supports this. "Quality is not a thing. It is an > > event." (ZMM) > > > > > > In Pirsig's talk with John on the existence of > > > ghosts for Indians, he says, "Those Indians and > > > medieval men were just as intelligent as we are, > > > but the context in which they thought was > > completely different." (ZMM) > > > > > > And that captures (I think) what I've said. The > > > MOQ is "the context in which we think". > > > > > > It is a Way. A Weltanschauung (in the untranslated > > German sense). > > > > > > And let me be clear, I don't think this is just > > > Pirsig's MOQ, but applies to the nature of all > > > metaphysical inquiries. Pirsig says as much in > > > LILA. "There already is a metaphysics of Quality. > > > A subject-object metaphysics is in fact a > > > metaphysics in which the first division of > > > Quality - the first slice of undivided experience > > > - is into subjects and objects." In this sense, > > > I'd argue, "metaphysics of Quality" is redundant. > > > There is Quality. And there are Metaphysical > > > descriptions of that Quality. We more or less > > > look past this redundancy due to Pirsig's > > > particular use of the word "Quality", and maybe > > that's part of the > > > confusion. > > > > > > So we start with an undefinable Quality, that is > > > an "event" not a "thing", that is approachable > > > always only through allegory and analogy, our > > > "way" of dividing Quality becomes the "context in > > > which we think", our Way of Being (or maybe > > > Metaphysics with a capital "M", but this is > > > active not descriptive). And then attempts to > > > describe this context form the intellectual > > > patterns we refer to as a metaphysics - which > > > then kicks off the self-referential recursions > > > since these are descriptions can never contain > > that which they describe. > > > > > > Make sense? (If so, you may be alone. :-)) > > > > > > Arlo > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > Archives: > > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > Archives: > > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
