Quoting Ron Kulp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Excellent .
Yes, excellent. I wonder if Bo concurs? Platt > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Arlo > Bensinger > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 3:07 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [MD] Science and the MOQ > > Hi Ian, > > No, I don't think we disagree. I personally like > strange loops and recursions, my point I suppose > was that we have to accept this circularity and > its limitations (and benefits) when we start to > define something according to itself. > > There are certainly, as Ron points out, > "intellectual patterns" we talk about here that > are descriptions of the MOQ. But a metaphysics > (any metaphysics, I would say) is more of an > orientation, a "Way", the active construction of > the system in the first place. SOM runs into the > same self-referential question, is SOM-itself a > "subject" or an "object"? I'd say "neither", but > a way of framing the world INTO subjects and objects. > > You see the "problem", of course. Any system that > "divides" the cosmos can't be contained within > any of its divisions. By definition, it is above those divisions. > > Pirsig mentions this in ZMM. "Quality is the > continuing stimulus which our environment puts > upon us to create the world in which we live. All > of it. Every last bit of it. ... Now, to take > that which has caused us to create the world, and > include it within the world we have created, is > clearly impossible. That is why Quality cannot be > defined. If we do define it we are defining > something less than Quality itself." (ZMM) > > I'm obviously on a "verb" kick here, and its not > entirely Ulysses S. Grant that is to blame, > although that quote sums up a lot of what I think > in very few words. Pirsig, by the way, also > supports this. "Quality is not a thing. It is an event." (ZMM) > > In Pirsig's talk with John on the existence of > ghosts for Indians, he says, "Those Indians and > medieval men were just as intelligent as we are, > but the context in which they thought was completely different." (ZMM) > > And that captures (I think) what I've said. The > MOQ is "the context in which we think". > > It is a Way. A Weltanschauung (in the untranslated German sense). > > And let me be clear, I don't think this is just > Pirsig's MOQ, but applies to the nature of all > metaphysical inquiries. Pirsig says as much in > LILA. "There already is a metaphysics of Quality. > A subject-object metaphysics is in fact a > metaphysics in which the first division of > Quality - the first slice of undivided experience > - is into subjects and objects." In this sense, > I'd argue, "metaphysics of Quality" is redundant. > There is Quality. And there are Metaphysical > descriptions of that Quality. We more or less > look past this redundancy due to Pirsig's > particular use of the word "Quality", and maybe that's part of the > confusion. > > So we start with an undefinable Quality, that is > an "event" not a "thing", that is approachable > always only through allegory and analogy, our > "way" of dividing Quality becomes the "context in > which we think", our Way of Being (or maybe > Metaphysics with a capital "M", but this is > active not descriptive). And then attempts to > describe this context form the intellectual > patterns we refer to as a metaphysics - which > then kicks off the self-referential recursions > since these are descriptions can never contain that which they describe. > > Make sense? (If so, you may be alone. :-)) > > Arlo > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
