Ian,
And that might be the crux of it.
SA
--- ian glendinning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Short answer Bo ...
>
> Yes I agree that understanding the intellectual
> level (I would say
> social and intellectual levels) is the crux of our
> difference. Has
> been for years - that's why I took your challenge to
> answer the
> specific question as rhetorical, since you already
> know my answer.
>
> The reason we agreed to diasgree about what did or
> didn't work here,
> was my dawning realization that Pirsig's view was
> simply historical,
> in fact it was you that pointed that out to me.
>
> The 4th level "was" SOM when it arose, but not "is"
> fundamentally so
> for all time.
> Basically - I believe I've moved on to better
> evolved understandings
> of "intellect".
>
> Ian
>
> On 5/12/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Hi Ian
> >
> > On 11 May:
> >
> > > But I can answer the specific question too.
> Almost too easy.
> >
> > > The first split above "Quality" as our (chosen)
> metaphysical
> > > foundation is Dynamic / Static, rather than S/O
> .... need I go on ?
> >
> > > The reason it resolves many of the dichotomous
> either / or issues that
> > > SOMists find themselves debating / arguing about
> is that they are
> > > really choosing between two seemingly objective
> alternatives, when we
> > > know that in fact they are not (need not). The
> view they are missing
> > > is typically that the options they are debating
> are two static
> > > patterns
> >
> > This is the orthodox method of how the MOQ tucks
> SOM under
> > its wings, and it does not work, but was necessary
> because of the
> > miscarried intellectual level. In LILA it is used
> to demonstrate
> > how the MOQ solves the mind/matter paradox and
> should be
> > applicable to the nurture/nature one as well. But
> first the said
> > paradox
> >
> > It's due to SOM's two realm completely removed
> from each
> > other, one can pursue a thought forever, but
> nowhere does it pop
> > out into the matter realm, Yet we know that mind
> and matter
> > interacts constantly; we "make up our mind" and
> our body obeys.
> > This is its simplest form I know it has countless
> variants.
> >
> > Pirsig's explanation is that the social and
> biological levels
> > "connects" the mind and matter realms, but this
> presupposes that
> > the inorganic level=matter and the
> intellectual=mind, but this is
> > not true, he spends much time to demonstrate that
> matter
> > (substance) is a platypus, then it follows that
> mind is one too. And
> > even so this only brings the schism to
> biology/society. How does
> > "objective" biological patterns interact with
> "subjective" social
> > patterns?
> >
> > No, it's still-born. The obvious solution is that
> the S/O distinction
> > is intellects static value. Because of that (a
> mere static level) it
> > will start spawning paradoxes if treated as
> reality's deepest
> > schism. This dis-solves all S/O-induced paradoxes
> in the same
> > manner as Newton's physics dissolved those induced
> by the early
> > Greek physics' flawed premises.
> >
> > In the nurture/nature paradox the orthodox method
> is just as
> > unwieldy. Nurture=society and nature =biology so
> here no levels
> > are missing
> >
> > The mind-matter paradoxes seem to exist because
> the
> > connecting links between these two levels of
> value
> > patterns have been disregarded. Two terms are
> missing:
> > biology and society. (LILA)
> >
> > But the mystery of what constitute the human
> behavior - biology
> > or society - is just as acute and the SOL-ution
> just as simple and
> > liberating, SOM's nurture and nature has nothing
> to do with
> > MOQ's 2nd. and 3rd. levels (as little as matter
> and mind has with
> > its 1st. and 4th.) This paradoxes is (also)
> created by intellect as
> > SOM and disappears with SOM as a MOQ level.
> >
> > Ian ctd:
> > > and that the option they are missing is the
> excluded middle of some
> > > dynamic balance / interaction of those patterns
> - their patterns are
> > > rarely "wrong" merely historically static. The
> best way to find those
> > > dynamic alternatives .... need I go on ...
> participation ... etc. I
> > > know I don't need to explain MoQism to you.
> >
> > > My comment to you is that the way to teach a
> SOMist that is not to
> > > "teach" them that. Show them examples, show the
> koans, lead their
> > > questions, help their answers. Telling them they
> are wrong, and you
> > > are right, gets nobody anywhere - just a recipe
> for war..
> >
> > > Am I at least addressing your question ?
> >
> > I'm afraid you are, but allow me to drone on. Do
> you agree that
> > the intellectual level is the fulcrum? If Pirsig
> had treated it as
> > SOM - not as if the villainous cuckoo "science"
> had laid its S/O
> > egg in its nest, then the SOL would have been the
> one and only
> > interpretation? Now, in the Paul Turner letter
> Pirsig comes one
> > hair's breadth from admitting that the 4th. level
> is SOM.
> >
> > I think the same happens to the term,
> "intellectual," when
> > one extends it much before the Ancient Greeks.*
> >
> > ".. the same" is the absurdity of making the
> social level disappear
> > into molecules, cells and atoms, and "the ancient
> Greeks" is
> > SOM in moqtalk. So here we have it from Pirsig for
> those who
> > think I commit a "lèse majesty".
> >
> > Think about it.
> >
> > Bo
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> >
>
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > Archives:
> >
>
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> >
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
>
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
