Never mind logic books, check out quantum mechanics and you will find that something comes out of nothing all the time. As a consequence of Werner Heisenbergs uncertainty principle particles flit in and out of existence continually in empty space, this occurs too quickly to directly observe, but non the less the observed effects of this phenomenon are now causing real problems in further minaturising the pathways of microchips through the Casimir Effect (an indirect observable effect of particles flitting in and out of existence). The Casimir effect is a consequence of 'stuff ' appearing out of nothing on a regular basis. This was not a problem before but now circuitry is getting down to chip etching on a near atomic level 'stuff ' appearing out of nothing in your microchip tends to mess things up a bit and make your Aristotlian computer crash! Logic states that getting something out of nothing is a fallacious premise but the real world we are now advanced enough to start interacting with says that it doesant care what logic states. The real world knows that getting something out of nothing is an observed reality to the extent that it is giving microchip designers a bit of a headache at the moment (The Economist May 24th 2008 page 113 ' The Casimir effect - Much Ado About Nothing''). Humankind is approaching a point where a general shift in perception is needed. Aritotle and absolutism has proven very useful up to this point for those who have had the choice and inclination to take it up instead of superstition, but the point is now not too far off when people sat at the front of the train will believe again that you can get something from nothing. This time it will not be in a superstitious way and it will superceed the absolutists, it will be in a MOQ kind of way and it will be good. We will not get there by arguing over the finer intellectual points of it in discussion forums. Thinking about things is not enough, to effect change you must take action and we are unique as humans in that we have a choice to dance to the beat or to stand at the sides watching. When I figure out how to drive this discussion forum thing I will start a new title, it will be called '' action speaks louder than words'' and theoretical discussion will not be solicited under that title which I hope will not inconvenience anyone, no doubt the discussion will go on unabated elsewhere and that is good. I just hope I dont end up talking to myself any more than I already do ! Simon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [Ham] > check out a logic book while you're at it. You'll find that the statement > "something > comes from nothing" is a fallacious premise.
Ham, The ball's in your court. Can you find any logic book that uses the phrase "fallacious premise"? Any good logic book will talk about ARGUMENTS as "fallacious"/not "fallacious", depending on the connection between the premises & the conclusion. PREMISES are evaluated as true/false, supported/unsupported, etc. But I don't think you'll find a logic book which evaluates "something comes from nothing". Or if you do, it will evaluate it the same as "something doesn't come from nothing". Craig Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
