bravo dave. unflappable!
--- On Wed, 6/8/08, david buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: david buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [MD] Tit's > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Received: Wednesday, 6 August, 2008, 2:07 AM > Krimel said to dmb: > So you do deny the existence of an external world and you > believe the MoQ is dualistic? Just trying to clarify. > > dmb says: > The MOQ's dualism is a distinction between Dynamic > Quality and static quality. It says DQ is the primary > empirical reality, a phenomenal reality. The "external > world" denied by this would be Kant's things in > themselves, the objective reality, material reality or > whatever one wishes to call the supposed cause of the > phenomena. In other words, the MOQ does not deny the > experience from which we derive ideas about the external > world, it simply denies that the external world is anything > more than an idea. > > Think of it like this. Kant's categories of the mind > were thought to be what gives shape to the things in > themselves, the filter through which experience was > interpreted. You could sayt that since the linguistic turn > these categories have been replaced by language. This is > what shapes our understanding, rather than some innate > feature of the mind. > > Krimel said: > The Dali Lama sent monks for testing at a neuroscience lab > at the University of Wisconsin and delivered an address to > the 2006 annual meeting of the Society for Neurosciences. > ...The Transcendental Meditation folks have sponsored and > promoted research for. But the Dalai Lama and the Maharishi > are too reductionist for you to dirty your hands with? > > dmb says: > Yea, I know. David Lynch is convinced that transcendental > meditation has huge benefits for creativity as well as > mental health. I have a four and a half hour program on the > spiritual and scientific explorations of human experience > from Stanford. His holiness, the Dalai Lama is the star of > this program. John Horgan's book, "rational > mysticism" discusses the scientific investigations into > this as well. What makes you think that I don't know > about this stuff? I live in this world too. See, I keep > telling you that the data, the scientific facts are not in > dispute. It is inherently philosophical to compare SOM with > the MOQ. Talking about the status of the external world will > not be helped by making reference to this facts. Roughly > speaking, I'm talking metaphysics and you keep > responding with physics. You think you're talking over > my head but its more like you don't even understand what > the topic is. As consequence, we're just talking past > each other. > > Krimel said: > Dream studies have been neglected? The first president of > the APA, G. Stanley Hall wrote a book on dreams so did > Freud, Jung and dozens of other Psychologists. There are > sleep laboratories the world over studying the physiology of > sleeping and dreaming. ...There is even a rock band named > R.E.M. you might remember their hit, "Losin' My > Religion". An acronym derived from the scientific study > of the dream state has become part of the modern mythos. > > dmb says: > If I had said there were no dream studies, you would have a > good point. But I didn't so you don't. In fact, the > head of the religious studies department at my school is a > Jungian. I'll be taking the psychology of religion from > her starting a week from today. I studied some Freud and > such for another class a year ago. And of course my interest > in mythology (Joe Campbell is a Jungian of sorts) is related > to dreams as well. I'm currently reading a thing called > "the Chemical Muse: Drug Use and the Roots of > Civilization". Its all about the impact of madness, > hallucinations, prophecies and dreams in the ancient world > and the ways in which this feature of our culture has been > air-brushed out of the picture. Likewise, Pirsig says we > have a blindspot here. That's what I mean by neglect, > not total ignorance. By the way, I've seen REM in > concert and have loved them for about 25 years. Even my 8 > year old son likes that band. Again, I know this stuff cause > I live in this world too. Its sa > fe to assume that I do not live in a cave or under a rug. > > Krimel said: > ...I would suggest that whatever your plan for more > inclusive science "should" be might proceed a bit > better if you actually knew what was going on. > > dmb says: > Your continued efforts to discuss metaphysics by citing > scientific studies can only be the result in a profound > misconception as to the topic under discussion. Again, the > data is not in dispute. The MOQ does nothing to alter the > raw data. Its about the assumptions behind that data and the > conclusions drawn from it. Its not like I have my head in > the sand, you know. Its not like I'm hiding from the > facts. In fact, I'm already signed up to study > psychology and the social sciences this semester. The > chairman of the grad school was a psychotherapist until she > found it lacking and became a philosopher instead. I studied > Freud, Piaget, and Lacan (among others) with her. She has > said very flattering things (to other students) about the > term paper I wrote for her class. It served as a writing > sample in my application package too. My point? People who > are in a much better position to judge what I'm saying > think I have a pretty good idea of what's going on. And > based on the case you've > been making, I'd say that YOU have no idea what's > going on and think you're subscribing to a rather naive > sort of scientism. > > Again, science is one thing and the philosophy of science > is another. You'll never keep up unless and until you > switch to the actual topic. > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Reveal your inner athlete and share it with friends on > Windows Live. > http://revealyourinnerathlete.windowslive.com?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WLYIA_whichathlete_us > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Find a better answer, faster with the new Yahoo!7 Search. www.yahoo7.com.au/search Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
